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NOTE: You may notice textual errors throughout this document, many of which have been left intact from the original text. Should you want to investigate the integrity of the original report, please refer to the original two printed volumes containing the official report of the proceedings and debates.


MONDAY, 2 p. m., March 11, 1895.

The Convention met in regular session at 2 o'clock p. m.

President Smith in the chair.

Prayer was offered by Rev. B. F. Clay, pastor of the Central Christian Church.

Mr. Haynes was excused on account of sickness.

Mr. ROBINSON (Kane). Mr. President, I will state that I was snowed under and could not come the direct route, so that I had to go around and I traveled 428 miles to get here.

The roll was then called and the following named members answered to their names:
Evans, Weber
Evans, Utah

Kimball, Salt Lake
Kimball, Weber
Larsen, L.
Larsen, C. P.
Low, William
Low, Peter
Low, Cache
Murdock, Beaver
Murdock, Wasatch
Murdock, Summit
Peterson, Grand
Peterson, Sanpete
Robinson, Kane
Robison, Wayne
Van Horne

Mr. EVANS (Weber). Mr. President, Mr. Spencer requested me to ask an excuse for him; he could not be here today, his distance of travel was 38 miles.

Mr. KIMBALL (Weber). Mr. President, I was not able to be here last Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday, and I would like to have the Convention enter an order now to excuse me for those days.

The PRESIDENT. My remembrance is, Mr. Kimball, that you were excused. It is so marked on the journal.

Mr. KIMBALL (Weber) Another thing, Mr. President, I answered 38 miles when my name was called and I desire to state to this Convention that I do not desire my mileage because it does not cost me anything to travel to and from my place, so that I ask that the mileage so far as I am

concerned be stricken out.

Mr. VARIAN. Mr. President, I wish to present a report of the committee on rules.

Mr. KIMBALL (Weber.) Mr. Varian, the minutes have not been read yet.

Mr. VARIAN. I beg pardon, there was no rule requiring it.

The PRESIDENT. The minutes have not been read yet, gentlemen. We will have the minutes read.

The secretary then read the journal of the last previous session, which, after correction, was approved.

Mr. EVANS (Weber). Mr. President, I move that the name of chief clerk be changed to that of secretary.

The PRESIDENT. The report of the committee on rules will fix that.

Mr. EVANS (Weber). The report of the committee on rules will name him that officer all the way through, but an action has been taken, as I understand it, naming him the chief clerk, and as we find, it is very unusual in other conventions, and it is an office that is unusually attached to that of speaker.
Mr. VARIAN. Mr. President, I second the motion.

Mr. KIMBALL (Weber). Mr. President, I second the motion, and I would like to have you add to that that the minute clerk be known as assistant secretary.

Mr. EVANS (Weber). I accept the amendment.


Mr. CHIDESTER. Mr. President, I think the law provides that it shall be chief clerk.

The PRESIDENT. The Enabling Act I think provides it.

Mr. KIMBALL (Weber). It makes no difference as to what he shall be called.

Mr. VARIAN. Mr. President, I call for the reading of the report of the committee on rules.

The report of the committee on rules was then read as follows:

Convention Hall Room, Committee on Rules.

To the Convention:

The committee on rules herewith report certain standing rules, together with the report of the sub- committee accompanying the same, with a recommendation that said rules be adopted as the standing rules of the Convention, and that the sum of $14.00 be allowed and paid as per report of sub-committee.

And we further recommend that the appointment of committees hereby be ratified.



March 11th, 1895.

To the Committee on Rules:

The undersigned herewith report the annexed standing rules and recommend the same be reported to the Convention for adoption.

The sub-committee also report that owing to the necessity for immediate action, they were obliged to employ a stenographer, and that the expense of so doing is $14.00.


D. Evans,



The PRESIDENT. Gentlemen, what will you do with the committee's report?

Mr. VARIAN. Mr. President, I ask that the rules be read by sections and suggest that each section as read, if not objected to, be considered as passed; there are thirty-eight of them and by so doing time will be saved.

Mr. KIMBALL (Weber). Mr. President, I move the reading of the rules be dispensed with and be left over until the next meeting of the Convention, so that they can be printed and each member have a chance to read those rules and consider them.

Mr. BOWDLE. Mr. President, I second the motion.

Mr. KIMBALL (Weber). Mr. President, I make that motion as an amendment, that the reading be dispensed with so that we can have them printed. I move further that the expense of the stenographer, $14.00, be allowed at this time.

Mr. THURMAN. Mr. President, I do not think this motion should prevail. Before the rules are printed I believe they ought to be read by sections. There may be some slight amendments proposed here and adopted by this Convention, and if that be true, they can then be printed as amended and we have not got so much to do this afternoon but what we can just as well consider these rules as anything else.

Hence, I am opposed to the amendment. I am not opposed to that part which appropriates the amount the subcommittee recommended as necessary expenses.

Mr. VARIAN. Mr. President, I didn't move to adopt these rules. I don't think such a motion should be made until they are read. I suggested that they be read and by way of suggestion only, that they be considered by sections.

These rules, as you will find, provide for amendments, and we supposed (and that was the occasion of our haste in the matter) that the Convention was waiting for the report of the committee on rules, in order that it might proceed with its business, and I hope this motion {81} of Mr. Kimball, the gentleman from Ogden, will not prevail. Let us determine at least that we have a basis this afternoon and adopt something. And we are just as ready to offer amendments now as we will be to-morrow.

Mr. KIMBALL (Weber). Mr. President, I made my motion for this reason; here are thirty-eight rules. No member of the Convention has seen those rules, and they have had no opportunity to consider them at all. And a mere casual reading of them will give the members of the Convention very little information in regard to them. Now, as I understand it, we have a public printer. By to- morrow morning the rules will be on the desk, where each member of this Convention will have a chance to read them over and consider them, so that he can intelligently suggest amendments, if there are any amendments; but to have them read over here casually by the secretary of the Convention, we must catch it as we can.

Mr. ROBERTS. Mr. President, I would ask if this committee on rules is a standing committee throughout the Convention?

The PRESIDENT. It will be, yes, sir; a standing committee.

Mr. ROBERTS. And if at any time any alteration could not be made either suggested by the committee or by the house?

Mr. EVANS ( Weber). Mr. President, as a member of that committee, I desire to state that we thought it proper to make that report as early as possible, which we have done. It may be true, that there are inaccuracies in the rules, but thus far this Convention is like a ship in mid ocean, without a rudder; we have no rules to guide us at all, and it would seem to me to be the best thing to do_adopt some rules; the committee is a standing one. It can bring in a rule at any time, or any motion can be made at any time during the session of the Convention to the standing rules and be adopted; it would only mean a waste of five or six hundred dollars to wait until morning. I think we ought to move even though we may move somewhat imperfectly, and I am opposed to the motion of Mr. Kimball, although I appreciate his motive in making it.

Mr. MURDOCK (Beaver). Mr. President, I think it would not take many minutes to read it over; we might find some corrections that would be very important before going to print, and I should be in favor of having the rules read and see what they look like, and then we will be better able to judge whether we want to send it to the printer at once.

Mr. KIMBALL (Weber). Mr. President, with the consent of my second I will withdraw my motion until the rules are read.

The PRESIDENT. If there is no objection, the motion may be withdrawn. Did you intend to withdraw that part of the motion which referred to allowing $14.00 for the work?

Mr. KIMBALL (Weber). I withdraw the whole motion until the rules are read.

The PRESIDENT. The secretary will read the rules.

Mr. THATCHER. I would suggest that the secretary will be kind enough to read slowly and distinctly.

The secretary thereupon read the remainder of the report of the committee, as follows:



RULE I. Unless otherwise ordered the Convention shall meet each day, except Sundays and holidays, at the hour of 10 o'clock a. m.
The President shall take the chair each day precisely at the hour to which the Convention shall have adjourned. He shall call to order and, except in the absence of a quorum, shall proceed to {82} business in the manner prescribed by these rules.

RULE II He shall possess the powers and perform the duties herein prescribed, viz:

1. He shall preserve order and decorum, and in debate shall prevent personal reflections, and confine members to the question under discussion. When two or more members rise at the same time, he shall name the one entitled to the floor.

2. He shall decide all questions of order subject to appeal to the Convention. On every appeal he shall have the right in his place to assign his reasons for his decision. In case of such appeal no member shall speak more than once.

3. He shall appoint all committees except where the Convention shall otherwise order.

4. In case the president is absent or fails from any cause to take the chair at the appointed hour, the Convention shall appoint a president pro tempore.

5. When the Convention shall be ready to go into committee of the whole, he shall name a chairman to preside therein, subject to the right of committee to elect its own chairman.

6. He shall assign seats to authorized reporters of the press, who shall have the right to pass to and fro from such seats in entering or leaving the chamber. No reporter shall appear before any of the committees in advocacy of or in opposition to anything under discussion before such

committees. A violation of this rule will be sufficient cause for the removal of such reporter. Removal for this cause shall be vested in the president.

7. He shall not be required to vote in ordinary proceedings, except where his vote could be decisive. In case of a tie vote, the question shall be lost. He shall have general control, except as provided by rule or law, of the chamber and of the corridors and passages in that part of the building assigned to the use of the Convention. In case ofany disturbance or disorderly conduct in the galleries, corridors, or passages, he shall have the power to order the same to be cleared, and may cause any person guilty of such disturbance or disorderly conduct to be brought before the bar of the Convention. In all such cases the members present may take such measures as they deem necessary to prevent a repetition of such misconduct by excluding the offending person from admission to the chamber thereafter, or imposing other penalties.

8. He shall also be ex-officio member and chairman of the committee on rules.


RULE III. The first business of each day's session shall be the reading of the journal of the preceding day and the correction of, the same. The order of business shall then be as follows:

1st. Presentation of petitions, memorials.

2nd. Reports of the standing committees.

3rd. Reports of select committees.

4th. Introduction of ordinance and propositions for insertion in the Constitution.

5th. Unfinished business.

6th. Special orders.

7th. Third reading of the ordinance and propositions to be inserted in the Constitution.

8th. Motions and resolutions.

All ordinances and propositions for insertion in the Constitution shall be read in full once, and a second time by title. which shall be considered the second reading, and referred to the appropriate committee without debate.


RULE IV. Petitions, memorials, remonstrances and any other papers addressed to the Convention shall be presented by the president, or by any member in his place, read by their titles, unless otherwise ordered, and referred to the proper committee.

RULE V. Every member presenting a paper shall endorse the same; if a petition, memorial, remonstrance or communication in answer to a call for information, with a concise statement of its subject and his name; if a notice or resolution, with his name; if a proposition for insertion in the Constitution, with a statement of its title, his name, and, if taken from a constitution of any state, a reference thereto; if a proposition of any other kind for the consideration of the Convention, with a statement of its subject, the proposer's name, and the reference desired. A report of a committee must be endorsed with a statement of such report, together with the name of the committee making the same, and shall be signed by the chairman; a report by the minority of any committee shall be signed by the members rendering the same.

RULE VI. Every member who shall be within the bar of the Convention when a question is stated from the chair, shall vote thereon unless he is excused by the Convention, unless he be directly interested in the question; nor shall the roll of absentees be more than once called. The bar of the Convention shall be deemed to include the body of the Convention chamber.

RULE VII. Any member requesting to be excused from voting may make, when his name is called, a brief statement of the reasons for making such request, not exceeding two minutes in time; and the Convention, without debate, shall decide if it shall grant such request; but nothing in these rules contained shall abridge the right of any member to change his vote on any question previous to the announcement of the result. Any five members shall have the right to demand the yeas and nays upon any question before the result is announced. Any three members have the right to demand a call of the Convention, but if objection is made, the demand shall be sustained by one-fifth of the members present; and upon a call of the Convention the names of the members shall be called alphabetically, and the absentees noted upon the journal.


RULE VIII. No member rising to debate, to give a notice, make a motion, or present a paper of any kind, shall proceed until he shall have addressed the president and been recognized by him as being entitled to the floor. While the president is putting a question or a count is being had, no member shall speak or leave his place; and while a member is speaking no member or person shall entertain any private discourse or pass between the member speaking and the chair.

RULE IX. When a motion to adjourn or for recess shall be carried, no member or officer shall leave his place until the adjournment or recess shall be declared by the president.

RULE X. No persons, except members of the Convention and the officers thereof shall be permitted within the secretary's desk, or the room set apart for the use of the secretary, during the session of the Convention, and no member or other person ,shall visit or remain by the secretary's table while the yeas and nays are being called, except officers of the Convention in the discharge of their duties.

RULE XI. No member shall speak more than once on the same question until every member desiring to speak on such question shall have spoken, nor more than twice on any question,

without leave of the Convention; provided, the mover of any question, or the chairman of any committee reporting the matter under consideration, may, upon giving notice thereof, speak last.

RULE XII. If any member in speaking or otherwise transgress the rules of the Convention, the president shall, or any member may, call him to order, in which case the member so called to order {84} shall immediately sit down, and shall not rise unless to explain or proceed in order. The president shall decide all points of order, which decisions may be appealed from.

RULE XIII. All questions relating to the priority of one question or subject matter over another under the same order of business, or a postponement of any special order or the suspension of any rule, shall be decided without debate.

RULE XIV. All questions of order as they shall occur, with the decisions thereon, shall be entered in the journal.


RULE XV. The president shall appoint the following standing committees, to report upon the subjects named, and such other matters as may be referred to them, viz:

1. Rules and methods of procedure, to consist of five members including the president, who shall be chairman.

2. Federal relations, to consist of seven members.

3. Preamble and declaration of rights, to consist of eleven members.

4. Legislative, to consist of fifteen members.

5. Judiciary, to consist of fifteen members.

6. Executive, to consist of fifteen members.

7. Elections and rights of suffrage, to consist of fifteen members.

8. Apportionment and boundaries, to consist of twenty-six members, one from each county.

9. Education and school lands, to consist of eleven members.

10. Public buildings and state institutions, to consist of eleven members.

11. Water rights, irrigation, agriculture, to consist of fifteen members.

12. Municipal corporations, to consist of nine members.

13. Corporations other than municipal, to consist of fifteen members.

14. Public lands, to consist of seven members.

15. Revenue, taxation, and public debt, to consist of fifteen members.

16. Salaries of public officers, to consist of nine members.

17. Mines and mining, to consist of fifteen members.

18. Labor and arbitration, to consist of seven members.

19. Printing, to consist of three members.

20. Militia, to consist of five members,

21. Manufactures and commerce, to consist of seven members.

22. Ordinances, to consist of seven members.

23. Schedule and future amendments, miscellaneous, to consist of nine members.

24. Accounts and expenses, to consist of three members.

25. Engrossment and enrollment, to consist of five members.

26. Compilation and arrangement, to consist of five members.

RULE XVI. The several committees shall consider and report without unnecessary delay upon the respective matters referred to them. All propositions for insertion in the Constitution shall be reported by the committees, cleanly engrossed, without rider, inter-lineation or defacement.

RULE XVII. It shall be the duty of the committee on printing to examine and report all questions of printing referred to them; to examine from time to time and ascertain whether the prices charged for printing and the quantities and qualities furnished are in conformity to the orders of the Convention and to the conditions fixed by it; to ascertain and report the number of copies to be printed and how distributed, and to report to the Convention from time to time any measures they may deem useful for the economical and proper management of the Convention printing.

RULE XVIII. It shall be the duty of {85} the committee on account and expenses to inquire into the expenditures of the Convention, and whether the same are being or have been made in conformity with the law and the orders of the Convention, and whether proper vouchers exist for the same; and whether the funds provided for the purpose are economically applied, and to report from time to time such regulations as may conduce to economy and secure the faithful disbursement of the moneys appropriated by law.

RULE XIX. Every ordinance, proposition, or other matter reported by any committee for insertion in the Constitution, shall, without further orders, be printed and referred to the committee of the whole.


RULE XX. The same rules shall be observed in committee of the whole as in the Convention, so far as the same are applicable, except that the previous question shall not apply, nor the yeas and nays be taken; nor a limit be made as to the number of times speaking. A motion to rise and report progress shall be in order at any stage, and shall be decided without debate, but a motion to rise is not in order until each section and the title have been considered, unless the limit of time has expired.

RULE XXI. There shall be a special calendar for the committee of the whole, on which shall be placed all propositions and other matters which by order of the Convention or under these rules are referred to such committee. Every proposition shall be considered and acted upon in the committee of the whole in its order upon the calendar. In committee of the whole propositions shall be read by the chairman and considered item by item, unless otherwise directed by the committee, leaving the preambles, if any, last to be considered. The body of the propositions shall not be defaced, or interlined, but amendments shall' be noted by the chairman
or secretary upon a separate piece of paper or rider, and so reported to the Convention. Every proposition or other matter reported from the committee of the whole for the third reading by the Convention, shall be placed upon the Convention calendar, and be considered and acted upon under that order of business.


RULE XXII. As soon as any entire proposition for incorporation in the Constitution shall have been disposed of, such proposition, if agreed to by the Convention, shall be referred to the committee on compilation and arrangement, to be by that committee embodied in the Constitution. The committee shall have full power to revise the language used in the various propositions and to arrange the same so as to be clearly expressive of the sense of the Convention, and to make the instrument complete and consistent within itself. The committee having completed its revising, shall report all the articles of the Constitution to the Convention, when it shall be fully read, and when it is thus read the question shall be on the whole Constitution, so revised and amended, and if the same shall be decided in the affirmative the Constitution as a whole shall be carefully enrolled under the supervision of the committee on engrossment and enrollment, and signed by the president and members of the Convention.


RULE XXIII. The final vote agreeing to each proposition, and upon agreeing to the instrument as a whole, shall be taken by the yeas and nays, and no such proposition shall be considered as agreed to, nor the instrument as a whole, except a majority of the delegates elected vote therefor.

RULE XXIV. Equivalent motions, resolutions; or amendments thereto, shall not be entertained. If any question {86} contains several distinct propositions, it shall be divided by the chair at the request of any member; but a motion to strike out and insert, shall be indivisible. When a question is under debate, no motion shall be received but to adjourn, to lie on the table, for the previous question, to postpone to a day certain, to commit or amend, to postpone indefinitely; which several motions shall have precedence in the order in which they are arranged, and no motion to postpone to a certain time, to commit, or postpone indefinitely, being decided, shall be again allowed at the same stage of the proposition.

RULE XXV. When a blank is to be filled and different sums or times shall be proposed the question shall be first taken on the highest sum and longest time.

RULE XXVI. All proposed action touching the rules and order of business, shall be referred, as of course, to the committee on rules. Such committee may sit during the session of the Convention without special leave, and report at any time upon rules, or order of business, so referred to them. It will be in order to call up for consideration at any time a report from the committee on rules. No other committee shall sit during the session of the Convention without special leave.

RULE XXVII. A majority of the delegates elected to the Convention shall constitute a quorum. In all cases of absence of members during the sessions, the members present may take such measures as they may deem necessary to secure the presence of absentees, and may inflict such penalty as they may deem just upon those who, on being called on for that purpose, shall not render sufficient excuse for their absence. No proposition or other matter shall be inserted in the Constitution, unless by the assent of a majority of the members elected to the Convention.

RULE XXVIII. The previous question shall be as follows:
Shall the main question be now put? And until it is decided, shall preclude all amendments or debates. When the Convention shall decide that the main question shall not now be put, the main question shall be considered as still remaining under debate. The main question shall be on the passage of a proposition for insertion in the Constitution, resolution or other matter under consideration; but when amendments thereto are pending, the question shall first be taken upon such amendments in their order.

RULE XXIX. Except as otherwise by these rules specifically provided, Roberts' Rules of Order shall be the rule of decision of parliamentary questions.


RULE XXX. It shall be the duty of the secretary to keep the journals of each day's proceedings, which shall be printed and laid on the table of members on the succeeding day. He shall prepare and post on the bulletin board in the hall of the Convention, on the morning of each day, a calendar of the orders and business of the day, for the Convention, and a like calendar for the committee of the whole. All appointments of officers and employes shall be entered on the journal of the Convention with the date of appointment.

RULE XXXI. It shall be the duty of the stenographer of the Convention to be present at every session of the Convention. He shall take stenographic notes of the debates in the Convention and in committee of the whole, and with reasonable dispatch shall furnish copy of the debates written out in long hand, and file the same with the secretary.

RULE XXXII. At a reasonable time, to be determined by the Convention, at least five days before final adjournment, the committee on engrossment and enrollment {87} shall be instructed to accurately engross and enroll the Constitution, and the same shall be reported by said committee to the Convention, and read through therein, and submitted to a final vote prior to its final adjournment. Upon such reading no amendments shall be permitted.

RULE XXXIII. The sergeant-at-arms shall, under the direction of the committee on printing, receive from the printer all matter printed for the use of the Convention, and cause the same to be distributed to the members immediately after reception by him; under the direction of the president, he shall enforce the rules of the Convention. He shall procure a bulletin board of suitable dimensions, to be placed by him under the direction of the president in some convenient place in the chamber.


RULE XXXIV. The following classes of persons besides officers and members of the Convention shall be entitled to admission to the floor of the Convention, during the sessions thereof, viz:

1. The governor, secretary, auditor; treasurer, and ex-governors.

2. The justices of the supreme court, and ex-justices thereof:

3. The delegate to Congress and ex-delegates.

4. Members of the Utah commission.

5. Reporters for the press, as provided by these rules.

6. Ladies.

No other person shall be admitted to the floor during the sessions of the Convention unless the Convention shall otherwise order.

RULE XXXV. No reporter of a newspaper or other person who is interested in pending or contemplated constitutional enactment, or who is employed by or receives any compensation from any corporation except a newspaper, news, or press association, shall be admitted or entitled to the privileges of the floor of the Convention.

RULE XXXVI. The doors of the Convention shall be kept open to the public during all its sessions.

RULE XXXVII. The standing rules of the Convention and the regular orders of business shall not be suspended or interrupted unless by a vote of two-thirds of the delegates present.

RULE XXXVIII. Every proposition to change, alter, or add to the standing rules of the Convention shall be referred to the committee on rules without debate; and every report thereon, from said committee, shall lie over one day before action thereon.

Mr. KIMBALL (Weber). Mr. President, I offer the following amendment to rule No. 1:
I move that rule No. 1 be amended by striking out the words “10 o'clock a. m.” and inserting in lieu thereof, “2 o'clock p. m.”

The PRESIDENT. Gentlemen, you have heard the motion_was there a second?

Mr. VARIAN. I second the motion.

Mr. THURMAN. Mr. President, I ask that rule 1 be read.

Mr. VARIAN. Mr. President, on behalf of the committee on rules, I desire to present to the Convention the reason that moved the committee to fix that hour. It was considered that if the Convention met at ten o'clock, all the members, or at least a large number of them would be present, and it would be easy to gather them all into the committee rooms. For some time, possibly a week or more, there will be little work for the Convention, as such, to perform. It is very necessary that the several committees should be actively and constantly at work preparing work for the Convention during this time. Now, it was supposed that if the Convention would meet at some hour in the morning it would call together all the members. The chairmen of the {88} several committees would be here, and there would be no excuse for absentees or persons being lax. For that reason and none other, it was considered that hour would be a convenient hour for meeting; it was further thought, Mr. President, that if the Convention met in the afternoon at two o'clock it would break in upon the work of the committees. Some of these committees will have quite a strain upon them and it is probably better that they should be permitted to have continuous working hours without interruption.

Mr. KIMBALL (Weber). Mr. President, the very reason that I made the motion that I did to amend the rule was for the accommodation of the committees. Now, I assumed that most of the work of this Convention was going to be done by the committees. The only opportunity they will have for meeting is in the evenings before the Convention meets in the morning, and it is for that very reason, that I desire to change the hour from ten o'clock to two o'clock, to give these committees ample opportunity to perform their work and bring it into the Convention.

Now, if we can meet at ten o'clock, the Convention will probably be prolonged through the whole day, or up until three or four o'clock in the afternoon, and leave no opportunity for the committees to meet or do their work. Now, take for example a legislative assembly, their hour of

meeting is almost invariably two o'clock in the afternoon, for the very reason that they give all the committees of the convention or of the legislature an opportunity to work from the time of adjournment in the afternoon until two o'clock the next afternoon. Now, I take it if we meet at ten o'clock, then the only opportunity the committee will have to meet will be in the evening. My observation has been and my experience has been that it is almost impossible to get a full committee meeting in the evening after dinner, and the work of the committees is delayed for that very reason. And that is why I make this motion.

Mr. MURDOCK (Beaver). Mr. President, I believe the motive is good in him who has amended the time of meeting, but I do not know what kind of a body of men has come together, but it has been my experience that committees are a little dilatory upon this ground; members of committees will say to themselves, “Well, perhaps there will be enough without my attendance.” I think it would facilitate the matter better to have the Convention convene, if they should only convene for the purpose of bringing the members together, and then they could be discharged_take an adjournment_and the committees then could meet in the rooms that are prepared. If we undertake to depend upon the committees, I am afraid there will be a lack of their attendance, and I think they will be much better prepared to go into their committee room from this body than they will to leave it to various committees. I think the motive is all right, but I don't think it will effect the matter so thoroughly as to have the Convention meet in the morning.

Mr. THURMAN. Mr. President, I favor the motion to amend. I think if we meet here at ten o'clock we will take up the time of the forenoon with something, whether it is profitable or not. We will run to the hour for lunch, then separate, the committees will have the same difficulty, if they are reluctant about meeting, in getting back here in the afternoon that they have now in the forenoon.

For my part, I see but very little work to be done, at least at the present time, except by committee. I agree with the gentleman from Weber in that respect. I think as it is, the most important work that we have to do at present (work by committee) that we should take that part of the day when men feel most like work, that is, in the morning {89} and come here and meet. Now, it seems, when we meet together in a body it is very difficult for us to separate_to tear ourselves away from one another; there seems to be sort of a fellow feeling, of brotherly love_or something, we stay together whether we have anything to do or not_I mean anything important.

Mr. EVANS (Weber). Mr. President, that would apply to the afternoon as well as the morning.

Mr. THURMAN. Very well, when we have got our committee work done_that portion which is important, if we want to meet together in the afternoon, I don't care if we stay together all night, whether we have anything to do or not, but I believe the committee meetings ought to be in the forenoon; I believe that is the time to get down to solid work, such as our committees have to do, and I don't see why the excuse should be raised here, that men will not come together. Why will not they come together as well in the committees as in the Convention? What is the reason for not coming together in committees? I think the reason is that we have not yet established times for holding our committee meetings so that committee members understand it. It is true that no one committee will be able to get all its members together, hardly, at any time, for the reason that

other committees are meeting and some of the members of one committee will be members also of another. That will be the case, however, whenever we meet.

The PRESIDENT. Gentlemen, are there any further remarks upon this?
The motion is to amend by striking out from the report of the committee, the words, “ten o'clock a. m.” and inserting the words, “two o'clock p.m.”


Mr. GOODWIN. Mr. President, to save time, I move that these rules as they have been read be adopted for one day.

Mr. KIMBALL (Weber). Mr. President, I second the motion.

Mr. HOWARD. Mr. President, I would like to hear rule 22 read.

Mr. IVINS. Mr. President, as an amendment to Judge Goodwin's motion, I move that these rules now be passed upon separately; that each rule be read and passed upon separately, as it is read.

Mr. EVANS (Weber). Mr. President, as an amendment to that motion, I would move that each rule be read and if no objection be made, that it be considered adopted.

The PRESIDENT. There has been a request to have rule 22 read. If the gentlemen will give attention it will be read.

The secretary then read rule 22.

Mr. HOWARD. Mr. President, that provides that whenever this matter is referred to that committee that they have the power to revise it and correct the language. I would make a motion that we add to that, “provided that if any serious blunder has been made in the wording of the article so referred, it be sent back to be corrected by the Convention, while in session.”

Mr. KIMBALL (Weber). Mr. President, I raise the point of order.

The PRESIDENT. There is a motion before the house. The motion is out of order.

Mr. RICHARDS. Mr. President, I am in favor of the motion made by the gentleman from Salt Lake, to adopt these rules for one day. There are several things in the rules that seem to me need a little change. If I understand them right as they were read, they are not altogether harmonious one with the other. It is impossible to offer an intelligent amendment at the present time, and if the gentleman will include in his motion the printing of the rules that we may have them before the next meeting, I should certainly favor that motion.
Mr. EVANS (Weber). Make it two days.

Mr. IVINS. Mr. President, I would like to ask what benefit can be derived from adopting these rules for one day. If the gentlemen want the rules printed, so that we will have them before the house, let us continue with the rules that we now have and let a motion prevail to have these rules printed and laid on the desks of the members. I can see no necessity for adopting them for one day.

Mr. GOODWIN. Mr. President, the rules probably will only have slight amendments at best; they will be the guide of the Convention; to adopt them to-day puts the committee in the right line and one day gives every member a chance to read the rules in the morning and to come here with an intelligent opinion upon them. It was simply to save time that I made the motion.

Mr. RICHARDS. Mr. President, I would like to offer a suggestion and ask the gentleman if he will accept as an amendment two days. It may be that the rules will not be ready in time to- morrow to enable us to examine them properly.

Mr. GOODWIN. Yes, sir; I will accept that.

The PRESIDENT. There was an amendment, if I recollect correctly, to Judge Goodwin's motion.

Mr. GOODWIN. It wasn't seconded.

The PRESIDENT. It wasn't seconded, all right. Gentlemen, you have heard the motion that the rules be adopted for two days, and that they be printed.

Mr. JAMES. I only want to say, Mr. President, that I hope that the motion will prevail.

The motion was carried.

Mr. WELLS. Mr. President, are reports of committees in order?

The PRESIDENT. Yes, if there are any committee reports, they should be sent to the table.

Mr. WELLS. I have a report of the committee on official stenographer.

Mr. EVANS (Weber). Mr. President, these rules are now in force; I would suggest that the chair take up the order announced by the rules.

Mr. RALEIGH. Mr. President, I noticed in the rules as read a rule in relation to precluding members from speaking twice on a question until all the rest had spoken. I presume there may be some who would not desire to speak on a question, hence I would suggest that these words read, “after the speaking of all who desire to.”

The PRESIDENT. Yes, sir; they so state. Do you know the number of the rule?

Mr. RALEIGH. I do not. It says that no member shall speak twice until all others had spoken.

By request the secretary read rule 11.

Mr. RALEIGH. All right; I did not hear that part of it.

The PRESIDENT. Gentlemen, the presentation of petitions and memorials is now in order.

Reports of standing committees are now in order.

The secretary then read the following report from the committee on printing:

Constitutional Convention,

Committee Room, March 11, 1895.


Your committee on printing beg leave to report as follows:

We requested bids from the printers of Salt Lake City on the temporary printing of 350 copies of each day's minutes of this Convention, said minutes to be printed in small pica or 11-point type, solid, type page 4 x 7 inches; 25 x 38 book paper, fifty pounds to the ream; folded and stitched. That in pursuance of said request your committee received bids from the following publishing houses:

The Salt Lake Lithographing Company, the Star Printing Company, the Tribune Job Printing Company, and the Deseret News Printing Company; that the latter company being the lowest bidder we awarded the printing of minutes, until otherwise ordered by this Convention, to the said company at the rate of $1.87 ½ per page for the 350 copies. {91 - STENOGRAPHER} The bids of said publishing houses are herewith attached and made a part of this report.

Respectfully submitted,



Mr. HART. Mr. President, I suggest it is not necessary to read the bids from the various houses, unless it is desired. It will simply take time:

The PRESIDENT. Does anybody desire to hear these bids read?

Mr. HART. I move, Mr. President, the report be accepted and adopted. Carried.

The PRESIDENT. Any other reports of the committees?

The committee on official stenographer presented a report, which was read by the secretary, as follows:


Your committee on official stenographer respectfully report that we have given the subject attention and recommend the appointment of Mr. Frank E. McGurrin, of Salt Lake City, to be the official stenographic reporter of this Convention; that he be required to take the oath of office and that it shall be his duty to furnish a long-hand type-written verbatim report of the proceedings of this Convention.

That his compensation be fixed as follows:

Ten dollars for each day the Convention is actually in session and 15 cents per folio for transcribing his notes into long-hand; provided, that the entire cost for both per diem and transcribing shall not exceed thirty dollars per day on the average.

That he be required to give bonds in the penal sum of $2,000 with good and sufficient sureties, to the acceptance of the secretary of the Territory, conditioned for the efficient and faithful performance of his duty and guaranteeing the Convention against recovery of any compensation for services in this connection exceeding thirty dollars per day for the days actually in session, and also for the delivery into the hands of the secretary of the Territory, within ten days after the final adjournment of this Convention, a complete long-hand typewritten verbatim report of the entire proceedings of this Convention.



Mr. KEARNS. Mr. President, I move its adoption.

Mr. VARIAN. Mr. President, I second the motion.

Mr. HART. Mr. President, I would like to inquire of the committee if they have received any terms from any stenographers except Mr. McGurrin. It would seem to me that the charges for the gentleman for transcribing are rather high_15 cents per folio, as I remember the report to be. I think perhaps we could get this work done for five cents per folio. In fact, I am informed that we can get the minutes transcribed at that rate. Ten cents, Mr. President, is the rate fixed by law for the transcribing of the notes of the official stenographer of the court, as I remember it. It seems to me to go above that and give fifteen cents per folio_fifteen cents for each hundred words that are transcribed, we are giving more than it is worth.

Mr. KEARNS. Mr. President, this committee was empowered to employ Mr. McGurrin or whoever they saw fit, and they have done so and reported to us. They were entrusted to do this by the Convention. It is a very responsible position and I trust we will adopt the report of the committee.

Mr. EVANS (Weber). Mr. President, I want to inquire whether the report of the committee is unanimous?

The secretary can inform us.

The SECRETARY. It is signed by Wells, chairman.

Mr. EVANS (Weber). It is a unanimous report?

Mr. WELLS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SQUIRES. Mr. President, do I understand that the committee is adverse to giving the information called for by Mr. Hart? If we can get this work done just as well for a less figure, I should certainly be in favor of doing it.

Mr. KIMBALL (Weber). Mr. President, I understand the committee were authorized to_

Mr. WELLS. Mr. President, I will say in answer to the gentleman that we {92} did receive other bids, but the committee thought it prudent not to furnish that information in detail to this Convention out of delicacy to the bidders; we have decided the question as we think upon its merits. We think Mr. McGurrin is at least_we may say the best official stenographer here and we want the best. We decided that it is not a question that we can let to the lowest bidder the same as digging a ditch, and yet having received bids and having made tests we came to the conclusion that Mr. McGurrin at this price per day was not excessive, as compared with that paid to other stenographic reporters at other conventions.

Mr. THATCHER. Mr. President, for the information of the Convention, would it be in order to have the names of the committee to whom this extraordinary power was given?

Mr. BOYER. Mr. President, I apprehend that the best move that this Convention can make, is to endeavor to get the bottom facts of this transaction. We have seemingly a fair statement from Mr. Wells; however, I will state individually it is unsatisfactory to me. If there were other bids, this Convention is entitled to the bids_to a statement as to what the work was offered to be done for. If there is such a delicacy on the part of the committee that they cannot give the names, that may be a matter with themselves. And as to the question of letting this work upon the basis of letting a contract for the digging of a ditch_I apprehend that it would take a spade and some muscle to dig a ditch, and when the ditch was completed, if done in conformity with contract, this work is equally done whether it be a five dollar man or with a one dollar man, and if we have equal ability in this Convention, or if there have persons of equal ability offered to do this work it is not necessary that we must have the best and the highest priced individual. What we want is to have the work well and faithfully done. I apprehend that there are other persons that are capable of doing this work and if they have made bids and propositions to do this work, I think it is but fair that this Convention know the whole of it, and then they decide if they choose to the best financial interests, in connection with the interests of the best labor to be done for this Convention.

Mr. CHIDESTER. Mr. President, I do not know whether I am rightly informed in regard to this, but was this committee empowered to employ this stenographer without any further action on the part of this Convention?

Mr. WELLS. No.

Mr. THURMAN. We haven't done it.

Mr. CHIDESTER. Now as for one, I didn't understand that to be the case, and I apprehend that if we adopt this report, that the employing of this stenographer will cost us nearly three thousand

dollars, and I deem that an excessive amount for that work; and if there is any one that can do that work_I believe that other conventions have done it very much cheaper than that, and that this can be done cheaper, and if that is the case, we should have it done cheaper, and I would like to know if there have been other bids put in at a less figure, and if they are competent to do the work; that is the question with me.

The PRESIDENT. The minutes show that Mr. Roberts moved that the appointment of an official stenographer be referred to a committee of five to decide upon the appointment and compensation of the same.

Mr. JAMES. Mr. President, I will state for the benefit of my friend who has just spoken and the other gentleman over here, that I didn't understand at the time that we were appointed, that this question would come up at all before this Convention. My understanding was that we were appointed a committee to make an examination and employ an official stenographer for this Convention. The {93} committee have proceeded upon that course so far as I understand it. Now, one gentleman says that it will cost about three thousand dollars. Another states to this Convention how impossible it is for those that are associated upon committees to understand the detail work of a committee. We have figured that matter out to the best of our ability and we think that it will cost anywhere from eight hundred to a thousand dollars at the rates we have agreed upon with Mr. McGurrin. Now, gentlemen, we had to proceed upon this line. These stenographers were put under contest, their work was submitted to us, and from their work we had to pass upon who in our judgment could do that work efficiently. Now, if the Convention had determined to proceed in the course that certain gentlemen think should be proper you should have had these contests made before you all where you could have judged for yourselves and not have sent out a special committee to have these contests, and make a report to you. Now, I don't care to go into the argument about how or what the mode of our procedure was, it is rather a delicate matter and all I have got to say is that my best judgment was that we should employ Mr. McGurrin at the rates that the committee have reported to you.

Mr. RICKS. Might I ask Mr. James a question? I understand there were several other applicants for this position and they were tested as to their ability to report the proceedings of this Convention. I would like to ask now, if any of them and all of them did not report the discussions of the day on which the contest was made?

Mr. JAMES. Yes, sir; that was the test of their ability.

Mr. RICKS. They all made a satisfactory report?

Mr. JAMES. Well, now I decline to answer that question, most emphatically.

Mr. RICKS. They all reported the speeches, do I understand you?

Mr. JAMES. They all reported, and I do say that is going a little too far.

Mr. RICKS. What I wish to arrive at is this; I believe that every gentleman upon the floor of this house acknowledges that Mr. McGurrin is probably the best reporter in the country, but I believe that there are other reporters in this city that can report the proceedings of this Convention satisfactorily, and I understand also_

Mr. THURMAN. Let me ask you a question, have you read them?

Mr. RICKS. Read what?

Mr. THURMAN. The reports.

Mr. RICKS. No, sir; I was not at the meeting, and do not know anything about the report.

Mr. THURMAN. You do not know anything about it then.

Mr. RICKS. But I understand there are other reporters in the city who can report satisfactorily the proceedings of this Convention, and for less than the rates the committee reports as charged by Mr. McGurrin. Now, if that is so, I believe that we ought to give preference to the lowest qualified bidder for this position.

Mr. THATCHER. Mr. President, the idea was thrown out that the power was given to this committee to employ a stenographer without any further action of this body. Am I to understand that that is the position taken now?

The PRESIDENT. From the character of this motion, it would seem to be the case; that would be the impression of the chair.

Mr. THATCHER. I understand Mr. James says they were not so empowered; is that so?

Mr. JAMES. I said that I thought we were so empowered.

Mr. ROBERTS. I did not catch the question of the gentleman a moment ago.

Mr. THATCHER. The gentleman on my left here claimed that the committee {94} when appointed were empowered to employ the stenographer without any reference to a future action of this body; is that correct?

Mr. ROBERTS. Mr. President, I do not so understand the powers of the committee.

Mr. THATCHER. If that is correct, of course that is the end of the matter; it is useless to discuss it.

Mr. ROBERTS. As a member of that committee, Mr. President I wish to disclaim any such pretensions to power. My understanding was that we were merely to investigate the abilities of

the respective applicants and to make inquiries concerning the probable expense, and to report to this Convention, and that our powers extended no further than that.

Mr. THATCHER. It seems to me, Mr. President, and it must be very evident to those who have taken the matter under consideration, that there will be a large deficiency that will have to be supplied by the taxpayers of this Territory, that is to say, that the appropriation of Congress will not cover the expenses of this Convention; if the committee files a unanimous report and they are satisfied that the employment of the party named is the best that can be done, having of course, in view efficiency, that the reports may be correctly had, I desire to say but very little upon this question, but I must confess that it reminds me of a little bit of an anecdote that I once heard. A congregation of religionists employed a new minister and one of the flock wanted to know why he did not preach in Latin; “Why,” he says “do you understand Latin?” He says, “no, but then we pay for the best and we ought to have it.” If we can get this reporting done_and it is is certainly very clear_must be to every gentleman on this floor that fifteen cents a folio is excessive, whatever may be said of the charge of fifteen dollars per day.

Mr. WELLS. Ten.

Mr. THATCHER. Ten, excuse me.

Mr. CANNON. Fifteen dollars was the price in Wyoming.

Mr. THATCHER. Everything in Wyoming is an expensive luxury. Utah is moving on an entirely different basis. I think we started out on the proposition that we would be economical. I am willing, however, in view of the unanimity of the report of the committee to vote for their report, but I think that in the future we should have things moved so that our constituents, the inhabitants of Utah, and the voters of Utah, will be satisfied, and with respect to this honorable body of men, that they should keep the expenses of this Convention down as an example of what may follow, and that we don't pay excessively for labor when the market is full of competition.

Mr. VARIAN. Mr. President, I simply want to call the attention of the Convention to the fact that this kind of reporting is a very different sort of reporting than that usually done by reporters. This reporter is obliged to attend the sessions of the Convention and stay here if it be one hour or ten, when he gets through, he has to employ out of his compensation a corps of assistants in order to comply with the orders of the Convention, and will have to spend hours in dictating to persons employed by him. Unlike conventions of a similar kind of great and wealthier states, where large funds are at the disposal of the Convention, the debates are not prepared and written out so that the members can see them each day, as in New York for instance, and Kentucky and elsewhere. In those states upon occasions of this kind within a stated period, twenty-four hours or forty-eight hours, the rules require that the reports shall be written out and placed on file with the secretary where every member can go and make his corrections, and revise his remarks. You will observe that these conditions do not exist here, and cannot exist. We {95} have not the money to pay for it, so that you will have to rely upon the reporter himself, his integrity and his capacity, which is most important, because, I presume the integrity part of it could be easily satisfied with any of the competitors. You will have to rely upon him absolutely. It is not as if you were able to go and see

and make corrections if he makes mistakes. If you have got to get a man that won't make a mistake, and I undertake to say that so far as the observation of the bar of this Territory has gone and the knowledge we have from the courts elsewhere, that this gentleman who is named by this committee is one of the foremost men in the United States in his profession. My recollection is, there are none who excel him and but one or two in the great competitive contests of the last three or four years who have at all approached him. Now, that being so, the committee being your eyes and your ears, upon whom you have devolved the task of deciding this question, it seems to me we may safely leave it with the committee.

Mr. KIESEL. Mr. President, I move you sir, that we refer this report back again to the committee. I believe in view of what has transpired here on the floor they can drive a better bargain when they report again.


Mr. EICHNOR. Mr. President, the best is the cheapest; the gentlemen on that committee, Mr. Wells, Mr. Roberts, Mr. Thurman, Mr. Eldredge, and Mr. James, are a perfect guarantee to me that they have done the best for this Convention that they possibly could. We have spent nearly half an hour here and possibly wasted fifty dollars of this precious thirty thousand dollars on this question. We refer it back and before we reach a final conclusion, we will have spent a day in wrangling over this matter and six hundred dollars is gone. I state frankly that if I was to receive thirty thousand dollars for one day I couldn't do it. If the committee comes to the conclusion that no one else but Mr. McGurrin can do it, I am satisfied and am willing to vote for the report of the committee.

Mr. GOODWIN. Mr. President, in discussing the matter of economy we ought to consider it both ways. An error on the part of a stenographer will kick this whole Convention into a turmoil, and fussing for three hours is more than a stenographer's cost for a week. In the first place, a stenographer is just exactly as a famous man, that was here a few years ago, used to say about mines; he said, there were just two kinds, one was worth anything in the world, and the other wasn't worth anything in the world. A correct stenographer is just as absolutely necessary for the business of this Convention_very much more necessary than any other one officer or any other one duty performed in this Convention. Here is a committee of five gentlemen representing both parties, all of them shrewd business men, who have investigated this whole matter and have reported precisely as the Convention directed them to report. If the matter is referred back they will either simply come in to-morrow and make a duplicate report or will ask to be relieved. It seems to me that it is almost a discourtesy to this committee, considering its composition, for us to debate this matter at all.

Mr. SQUIRES. Mr. President, I would like to ask the committee whether this thirty dollars a day limit refers to the transcribing of the minutes or whether that means the total compensation for the day.

Mr. THURMAN. Total compensation.

Mr. SQUIRES. The total compensation is thirty dollars a day?

Mr. JAMES. It does not say that it shall be thirty dollars a day, but it shall not exceed thirty dollars a day on an average. We made that so as to {96} limit it and keep it within bounds. Now, it is possible that it may not exceed fifteen dollars but we put it in that way.

Mr. SQUIRES. Mr. President, I was trying to reconcile the figures with the statement made by Mr. James when he was on the floor before that the entire expenses would not exceed eight hundred dollars.

Mr. JAMES. No, I said eight hundred to a thousand dollars.

Mr. SQUIRES. I don't suppose that there is any gentleman in this Convention supposes that the labors of the Convention will cease in thirty days; thirty days. at thirty dollars a day is nine hundred dollars; if we go sixty days, we will find that the limit given by the committee will be very much exceeded. Now, I find that at fifteen cents a folio that twenty dollars extra compensation will amount to 133 folios. We have, as the newspaper rumors give us (and I presume they were accurate upon this point), one candidate at least before this committee who has made an offer to transcribe for five cents a folio; that will make a saving on each day's work within the limit prescribed for Mr. McGurrin, of about fourteen dollars per day. That is the reason I ask this committee if they are averse to giving us the information in regard to this matter which they have. I don't suppose any candidate who was before that committee is at all afraid or ashamed to have the record made come before the Convention, and as the gentleman from Cache has said, I believe we should set an example in this Convention of a proper degree of economy in expenses. It will be considered, no doubt, as a precedent for future legislative bodies in this Territory. I am not in favor of employing a man that speaks Latin when we can get one that speaks plain English_when we can get the man that speaks English for a reasonable compensation. If there is question onthe part of this committee as to the qualifications of these or other candidates, I have nothing further to say. If they will state to this Convention that the other applicants are not qualified for that work, I will withdraw my opposition which I may feel, but otherwise, I shall be in favor of employing the cheapest talent that is correct.

Mr. ROBERTS. Mr. President, I wish to ask the chair, in the first place, if the amendment offered by the gentleman on my right is before the house, to refer this report back to the committee?

The PRESIDENT. It is properly before the house, as I understand it.

Mr. EVANS (Weber). It was not seconded.

The PRESIDENT. It was seconded.

Mr. KIMBALL (Weber): Mr. President, Mr. Kiesel did not offer this motion as an amendment; it was an independent motion and out of order.

Mr. KIESEL. Mr. President, I move it as a substitute.

Mr. ROBERTS. If the motion is on the question of referring it to the committee I presume it is not debatable, but if it is, I have some remarks to make on that subject.

The PRESIDENT. It was moved to adopt the report of the committee. Mr. Hart made some remark_whether he made a motion in regard to the matter I am not clear, then followed some discussion and Mr. Kiesel moved as a substitute that it go back to the committee for consideration. The question is on that substitute and is not debatable although we have been debating.

Mr. THURMAN. I think it is debatable. What rule is there that shuts off debate on a proposition of this kind? We have a rule here that says certain things referred to the standing committees shall be referred without debate.

The PRESIDENT. It is debatable according to the rule.

Mr. ROBERTS. Then, upon that proposition, Mr. President, I have this to say, that in this question of employing {97} a stenographer, I think I may claim the distinction of standing upon the question of economy, as in consequence of the expense attendant upon that work, I was scarcely favorable to employing a stenographer at all. When, however, the Convention voted down a motion of mine that the consideration of the whole question be referred to a committee and they decided they would have a stenographer, then I desired that the question of compensation and the ability of the one that should be employed be referred to a committee instead of undertaking to decide that question here in the Convention.

I went into the consideration of this question in that committee determined to do all that I could in behalf of economy, but we had tests made and after we got into the consideration of the subject it seemed to me that the one proposition above all others should be that the work be efficient, and that to have a report of the proceedings of this Convention which could in any manner be unsatisfactory or questionable, was a waste of the entire outlay. If there could be any doubt as to the efficiency of the work performed, upon that ground I think my fellow members on that committee will bear me out that I did all that I could in the way of standing for economy. We finally agreed to this report. That the committee, gentlemen, made such careful estimates as we could upon the amount of matter that would probably enter into each day's record, and guarding the expenses as we have done, by providing that the compensation both for the reporting and transcribing shall not exceed thirty dollars per day on the average, gentlemen will see that if this Convention shall sit forty days, the expense will not exceed twelve hundred dollars; if we shall sit for sixty days, then the compensation of the stenographer shall not exceed eighteen hundred dollars. Therefore, sir, when it came to the question whether we should pay this amount for
a report of the proceedings of this Convention that could be absolutely trusted, I waived all opposition and wonld not cast any possible reflections upon the reports of these debates to take place on this floor by withholding some three or four hundred dollars in the way of economy, and therefore, I assent to this report of the committee upon the ground of economy. These are my reasons for action in this matter.

Mr. CREER. Mr. President, with perfect deference to the judgment of this committee, I believe that as they have expressed themselves, they had the deepest interests and welfare of this Convention at heart in coming to this conclusion. It seems that the point of the remarks would refer more especially to the taking down of the debate and proceedings of the Convention. One thing, however, that appeals to our judgment, that is the transcribing of the minutes by typewriting at the rate of fifteen cents per folio. Now, we are all able to judge upon that, as to whether that should be excessive or not. The proposition places itself upon this, that it will equal at least the compensation of eight members upon this floor_the compensation that will be given this officer. I find in reference to Wyoming_I may say that their proceedings were very creditably done_that just one-half was the compensation of the official stenographer of that convention. I may read from the minutes of that convention, if you will permit me:

Your special committee on ways and means to whom was referred the matter of employing an official stenographer_

Henry G. Hay, Chairman,

Cheyenne, Wyoming:

DEAR SIR_I beg to submit the following proposition for your final consideration: I will make a stenographic report of the proceedings of the convention and furnish a typewritten transcript of the same, at the rate of fifteen dollars per day for each day actually employed in making such stenographic reports, {98} the work to be completed within thirty days after the adjournment of the convention.

Yours respectfully,


And that was adopted. Now I don't know why this delicacy_the matter of delicacy_economy it seems to me would precede that consideration, as to the competency of those men, of the parties who made the application. I am in favor of referring this matter or taking further action upon it. I think it is excessive and not in accordance with the principles of economy that we have desired to establish.

And this will be a precedent I think we cannot afford to follow during the remainder of the Convention. I am in favor that something be done, rather than accept this report at the present time.

Mr. THURMAN. Mr. President, as a member of that committee I desire to say a few words upon this question. So far as the Wyoming case is concerned, I take it that the lady in that case was to receive fifteen dollars a day for the time actually employed, both before and after the convention adjourned. That is not the meaning of this proposition. Not to exceed thirty dollars a day for the time actually occupied by this Convention; a contract to be entered into that the work be completed within ten days after the adjournment instead of within thirty days, as in that case. If we are in session thirty days, the compensation would be nine hundred dollars, although the reporter will probably be forty days actually engaged. He would have the ten days after the adjournment.

Mr. ELDREDGE. It would be not to exceed nine hundred dollars, Mr. Thurman.

Mr. THURMAN. Now, coming back to the question. Members seem to desire to know why this recommendation has been made, why the committee keeps back information. I don't blame members for that; if I were not a member of the committee I would be just that inquisitive; it is the right of every member to know particularly on questions involving the expenditure of money. There is no secret about the matter. It is true the bids were secret, it was simply a question of qualification_capacity to do the work to the satisfaction of the committee. Gentlemen, it may be that that committee were too hard to satisfy. So far as I am concerned, I felt like this, I didn't desire when the journals came into the hands of the members of this Convention one of these days and they looked over to see those nice little gems of oratory, and wit, and wisdom, that have dropped from their lips here, I wouldn't want them to be howling maledictions at this committee.

Mr. HALLIDAY. Mr. President, I am feeling very ill_very bad, I would like to be excused.

The PRESIDENT. The gentleman can be excused.

Mr. Thurman, you may proceed.

Mr. THURMAN. We proceeded in this manner with the utmost caution and deliberation and I believe every member of the committee proceeded with the most profound regard for economy. It seems to have been a case in which it wasn't a question of somebody having a pet; it was a question or a case in which members of the committee seemed all desirous and anxious to get the best service for the least money; and if the service was good enough, the least money for which it could be obtained was the guide by which the committee was governed. We made a test on the first day's proceedings, that wasn't satisfactory, explanations were made, we realized that it was possible that for the first day's proceedings parties hadn't acted with understanding of just exactly what would be required. And then we selected another day and let in various parties to take notes of the proceedings {99} to report to us in long hand the result of their work. Now, I wish to say, gentlemen of this Convention, that the committee make this recommendation after having examined the work and based their conclusions upon the work and the price thereof; and while I don't wish_

Mr. KIMBALL (Weber). Mr. President, I like to listen to Mr. Thurman all right; I don't desire to cut him off, but I insist that the gentleman is out of order. Mr. Kiesel's motion was equivalent to a motion to recommit. I submit that that is an undebatable motion. While I would like to hear the gentleman_

Mr. THURMAN. Seeing as you have allowed me to go this far, won't you just let me go on a little farther?

Mr. KIMBALL (Weber). I was speaking to the chair, not for your benefit particularly, but there may be some other long winded man here.

Mr. THURMAN. I wish to say this, Mr. President_     

Mr. KIMBALL (Weber). I call for a ruling.

Mr. THURMAN. And I rise for a personal privilege on this question. The committee has been somewhat attacked by members on the floor, and the question has been raised as to whether they were governed by proper principles in this matter, and I speak as one of the committee and I think the committee ought to be heard from and understood. Now, I was going to finish in a minute, but if you want to shut me off all right.

Mr. CANNON. I believe that the chair ruled previously that the question was debatable.

Mr. THURMAN. I so understood it.

Mr. KIMBALL (Weber). I think the chair was laboring under a mistake at that time, and I raise the question again that it is not debatable.

Mr. THURMAN. I object now. The objection is out of order. The only way he can reach this is to reconsider the ruling of this Convention, and it takes a two-thirds vote to carry that.

Mr. HART. Mr. President, I wish to say that in view of the information received from the committee I desired on the matter, I am opposed now to referring it again to the committee.

Mr. KIMBALL (Weber). Will the chair rule on my point of order?

The PRESIDENT. I think the point of order is well taken if it is against the chair.

Mr. HART. Mr. President, that motion to commit is certainly debatable; it is an amendable motion and Mr. Roberts is against Mr. Kimball on this point. He says a motion to commit is debatable.

Mr. THURMAN. Of course it is.

Mr. HART. I just wish to say, Mr. President, that I have no question as to the qualification and ability of Mr. McGurrin, but not knowing at the time the members of this committee or what consideration had been given the question, the proposition in my mind was this, that if any other person could do the work to the satisfaction of this Convention and only charge one-third as much for the transcribing I was in favor of that person. I think it will be useless Mr. President, to refer this matter to this same committee; you will get no further report from them than we have now. I am in favor of adopting their report.

Mr. CANNON. Mr. President, I think that this matter was referred to a committee_     

Mr. THURMAN. Mr. President, I believe that I am in order on this floor, I have waited for three speeches to be made since I was shut off by Mr. Kimball, and the question is whether I can proceed or not.

The PRESIDENT. We have a rule here if we can get our eye on it.

Mr. CANNON. I thought the gentleman was seated.

The PRESIDENT. Mr. Varian, can you turn to that rule?
Mr. VARIAN. The only rule about that is rule 24 I believe. It doesn't say whether it is debatable or not. It simply determines the precedence in which certain motions shall have place. It does not decide that question. It depends upon the general rule of parliamentary law.

Mr. PIERCE. Mr. President, we adopted Roberts' Rules of Order. On page 63, rule 22, it says that motions to recommit are debatable and also that it is permissible to debate the merits of the question it is proposed to commit.

The PRESIDENT. Then the ruling with regard to the debate going forward is correct.

Mr. THURMAN. Now, I will proceed with my peroration. [Laughter.]

I had reached that, however, and I desire to say this, Mr. President, in conclusion, that I don't want members of this Convention to vote against this report on the theory that it is too high, or that the committee have proceeded without proper deliberation. But don't refer it. If anything is done, I will recommend what to do, and that is, read the test by which the committee was governed, decide it for yourselves, upon the same theory that the committee decided it, and if you decide it against us, and you take the responsibility, all right. I will not be found fault with hereafter for having acted.

The PRESIDENT. The question before the house is on the adoption of the report of the committee. There is a substitute offered by Mr. Kiesel which is to recommit this matter to the committee.

Mr. HILL. Mr. President, I would like to know if this committee considered the question as to whether we needed a stenographic reporter or not at all.

The PRESIDENT. There is no question about that.

Mr. HILL. It seems to me if I can judge by what I have been listening to here for several days_

The PRESIDENT. I will say to the gentleman the Convention decided that they wanted one by vote here, if my memory serves me correctly.

[Calls for the question.]

Mr. CANNON. Mr. President, and gentlemen of the Convention, I think that when this matter was referred to the committee of five, that committee took the matter up without any bias whatever. I believe if there was a. bias, it was against the gentleman who has been recommended

by that committee. I believe that they have been conscientious in their examination of that which was presented to them, of the full matter, and I am satisfied that when they reported as they did report, that the whole Convention, had it had the whole matter before it, as this committee did, would have reported in the same manner. For this reason, I favor the original motion and shall vote against these substitutes.

Mr. KIESEL. Mr. President, in view of all that I have heard, I, with the consent of my second, withdraw my motion.

[Calls for the question.]

Mr. SQUIRES. Mr. President, I rather like the suggestion of Brother Thurman on that committee, that we should have the contest read to this Convention.

Mr. THURMAN. That is right,

Mr. MURDOCK (Beaver). Mr. President_

Mr. HART. I call for the previous question.

The PRESIDENT. All in favor of the adoption of the report of the committee will say aye.

The report was adopted.

Mr. VARIAN. Mr. President, I move that the reporter be sworn in.


Frank E. McGurrin was then sworn in as official stenographer.

The PRESIDENT. Are there any other reports of committees?

Mr. STOVER. Mr. President, on Friday {101 - RESOLUTIONS} last the followfng resolution was adopted:

That the committee on accounts and expenses report to the Convention the amount of expenses incurred per diem up to the present time and any other information they may give us on the general expenses of the Convention.

I now ask for the report of that committee.

The PRESIDENT. Is the committee ready to report?

Mr. LUND. Mr. President, as mileage was mentioned as a part to be reported upon, and we could not ascertain until to-day the number of miles that each had come, we were unable to report, but we will report to-morrow.

Mr. LEWIS. Mr. President, I would suggest that the reporter in being sworn, take the same oath we have all taken as members. It seems to me he should be sworn for a correct report of the proceedings of this Convention.

Mr. VARIAN. Mr. President, ordinarily the reporter takes an oath to correctly take down the evidence and arguments and correctly transcribe the same from shorthand into longhand, but I notice the reading of this oath is that he will correctly perform his duties as an officer of this Convention.

The rules adopted for two days include a rule specifying what his duties shall be. I should suppose that that would be sufficient.

The PRESIDENT. Is that satisfactory to you, Mr. Lewis?

Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir.

The PRESIDENT. The introduction of ordinance and propositions for insertion in the Constitution is now in order.

Mr. EVANS (Weber). Mr. President, I desire to introduce a proposition for insertion in the Constitution and ask that it be read at length and read a second time by its title and referred to the committee on elections and suffrage.

The same was read by the secretary as follows:

Whereas, both political parties in this Territory have declared in favor of woman suffrage; now, therefore, be it

Resolved, that the rights of citizens of the State of Utah to vote and hold office shall not be denied or abridged on any account of sex. Both male and female citizens of this State shall equally enjoy all civil, political, and religious rights and privileges.

Mr. THURMAN. We settled that long ago in the committee.

Said proposition was read a second time by its title.

The PRESIDENT. If there is no objection this will go to the proper committee under the rules.

Mr. EICHNOR. Mr. President, in accordance with Mr. Evans' resolution, I offer a proposition for a method of voting otherwise than by ballot.

Same was read by the secretary as follows:

A proposition to provide for method of voting otherwise than by ballot.

The delegates of the Constitutional Convention of the Territory of Utah, in Convention assembled, do propose as follows:

Section 1. All elections shall be by ballot. Nothing in this section shall be construed to prevent the use of any machine or mechanical contrivance for the purpose of receiving and registering the votes cast at any election; provided, that secrecy in voting be preserved.

Mr. VARIAN. The standing rule is to read it a second time by its title and refer it as a matter of course without a motion.

The proposition was then read a second time by its title.

The PRESIDENT. It will go to the committee on elections and suffrage.

Mr. EVANS (Weber). Mr. President, I desire to offer for insertion in the Constitution a matter relating to the elective franchise and ask that the resolution be read at once at length and a second time by its title, and under rule referred to the committee on elections and suffrage.

The secretary then read the same as follows:

Resolved, that in order to preserve the {102} purity of the ballot and to prevent the exercise of improper influences at elections, the following be inserted in the Constitution, namely:

No person who shall receive, accept or offer to accept, or pay, offer or promise to pay, contribute, or promise to contribute to another to be paid or used, any money or other valuable things as compensation or reward, for the giving or withholding any such vote or who shall make or become directly or indirectly interested in any bet or wager, depending upon the result of any election, shall vote at such election, and upon challenge for such cause the person so challenged before the officer authorized for that purpose, shall receive his vote, shall swear or affirm before such officer that he has not received or offered, or promised to pay, contribute, offered or promised to contribute to another to be paid or used any money or other valuable things as a compensation or reward for the giving or withholding of vote at such election and has not made any promise to influence the giving or withholding of any such vote nor made or become directly or indirectly interested in any bet or wager depending upon the result of such election.

The Legislature shall enact laws making a violation of any provisions of this section a crime and provide the punishment therefor, and the Legislature shall also enact laws excluding from the right of suffrage all persons convicted under the provisions of this section and also persons convicted of bribery or of any infamous crime.

The proposition was read a second time by its title and referred to the committee on elections and suffrage.

Mr. Eichnor offered for insertion in the Constitution an article on preamble and bill of rights.

Mr. THURMAN. How many sections are there, Mr. Secretary?

The SECRETARY. There are thirty-five in all.

Mr. THURMAN. I move we suspend the rules and refer that without further reading to the committee.


Mr. CREER. Mr. President, I would like to ask if it is stated there what that is copied from_that bill of rights?

Mr. EICHNOR. If any person desires a bill of particulars on the declaration of rights, I will furnish it. I will state that I consulted forty-four constitutions, in preparing that declaration of rights.

The PRESIDENT. Gentlemen, the question is on the motion to suspend the rules and refer this without reading.


The PRESIDENT. It will go to the committee on preamble and declaration of rights.

The SECRETARY. There is a proposition offered by T. B. Lewis.

Mr. RICKS. I move that we suspend the rules and that this be referred to the proper committee.



Mr. PETERS. Mr. President, I wish to offer a proposition on rights and I ask that the rules be suspended and that it go to the proper committee.


Mr. Evans (Weber) offered a proposition for insertion in the Constitution relative to free passage.

Mr. VARIAN. It is not debatable.

The PRESIDENT. Is it not debatable? The question is on the motion to refer it to the committee named.


The SECRETARY. Here is an article from Mr. Maloney of Weber.

The PRESIDENT. What will we do with it?

Mr. VARIAN. Mr. President, I ask leave to make a motion out of order in relation to the consideration of the rules. We omit that, do I have leave?

The PRESIDENT. Yes, sir.

Mr. VARIAN. Mr. President, I move that the consideration of the report of the committee on rules be made a special order for day after to-morrow at half past two o'clock.


Mr. LEWIS. Mr. President, I move that the rules be suspended and that the document submitted by Mr. Maloney shall go to the proper committee.


The PRESIDENT. It will be referred {103} to the committee on corporations other than municipal.

Any other documents?

The SECRETARY. Mr. Snow of Washington County in relation to salaries and fees.

Mr. THATCHER. Is it short?

The PRESIDENT. Read it.

The secretary read as follows:

Resolved, that no officer of the State, whether elective or appointive, executive, or judicial, of any county, city or town, shall receive for his own use for the performance of any official duties any fees, costs, perquisites, or compensation, other than his salary, and prescribed by law, and all fees payable by law for any official service shall be paid when received by such officers into the state, county, city or town treasury, respectively.

Said proposition was read a second time by its title.

The PRESIDENT. This goes to the proper committee.

Mr. EVANS (Weber). Mr. President, it goes to the committee by the rule without any order.

Mr. EICHNOR. Mr. President, I offer a proposition to enable cities to form their own charters. I would suggest that some gentleman make a motion to have the rule suspended and to have it referred without reading.

Mr. EVANS (Weber). Make the motion yourself.

Mr. EICHNOR. I move that the rules be suspended and that the proposition be read by title and referred to the committee on municipal corporations.


Mr. EICHNOR. Mr. President, I would suggest to the secretary to mark on that Washington and California. It is taken from both.

Said proposition was read a first and second time by its title.

The PRESIDENT. Any other propositions that should go into the Constitution?

[No response.]

The PRESIDENT. Unfinished business is in order.

Mr. THURMAN. Mr. President, I desire before we adjourn, if there are any announcements to be made by chairmen of committees, that they be made before we adjourn, and while we are all together. We don't know how to get together after we adjourn. There have been unsuccessful attempts made by several committees to get together and they cannot do it.

Mr. MURDOCK (Beaver). Do you make that as a motion?

Mr. THURMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. MURDOCK (Beaver). I second the motion.

Mr. THURMAN. I move that if the chairmen wish to call their committees together to-morrow that they make announcements before we adjourn this afternoon of the time and place the committee will meet.


Mr. JAMES. Mr. President, before we proceed to anything further, I wish to make an inquiry.

The PRESIDENT. We haven't got through with the order of business.

Mr. BOWDLE. Mr. President, if I am in order, I wish to offer a resolution with reference to printing.

The secretary then read as follows:

Resolved, that there be printed in pamphlet form 600 copies of the Enabling Act, names of the officers and members of standing committees_

Mr. EVANS (Weber). I arise to a point of order. We are now upon the order of business of introducing propositions, as I understand it.

The PRESIDENT. The point of order is well taken.

Is there any unfinished business?

Special orders are next.

Mr. JAMES. Mr. President, I don't know whether I am in order or not, but I arise for information. I want to know if we are going to have any committee clerks, and if we are going to have them, when we are going to have them? If there is any time in the world when the committee should have their {104} clerks it is right now. My committee needs a clerk at once; we should have had it to-day; we could have kept a clerk at work all day.

Mr. EVANS (Weber). Mr. President, I dislike it very much, but I arise to a point of order and I insist that the chair be permitted to go through the order as the rules require.

The PRESIDENT. Motions and resolutions.

Mr. Bowdle's resolution is in order.

The secretary then read the following:

Resolved, that there be printed in pamphlet form 600 copies of the Enabling Act, names of members, and members of standing committees, and rules and order of business, for the use of the members of this Convention.


Salt Lake.

Mr. WELLS. Mr. President, I think something of this kind is incorporated in the rules. This resolution provides for the printing of the rules before they are adopted. I move that it be laid on the table.


Mr. STREVELL. Mr. President, in view of the fact that we have already adopted the Constitution of the United States it seems to me that it would be appropriate if we had the United States flag draped in this hall, and I make a motion that the sergeant-at-arms_

Mr. EVANS (Weber). Mr. President, I am compelled to arise again to a point of order. We must proceed under the rules.

The PRESIDENT. Motions and resolutions are now in order.

Mr. EVANS (Weber). I beg pardon of the gentleman.

Mr. STREVELL. Mr. President. I make a motion that the sergeant-at-arms be instructed to procure proper United States flags and drape this hall with them.


Mr. JAMES. Mr. President, if I am permitted, I move you now that we take up the question of committee clerks.


The PRESIDENT, All in favor of the motion of Mr. James that we proceed to the consideration of committee clerks will say aye. Those opposed will say no.

The noes seem to have it.

The noes have it.

Mr. JAMES. Division.

Mr. THATCHER. Too late. The chair has ruled.

The PRESIDENT. The chair has announced its decision.

Mr. Lambert offered the following resolution, which was read by the secretary:

Resolved, that the printing committee be authorized to obtain 5000 letter heads, 5000 6 ½ envelopes, 1000 No. 10 envelopes, 2000 committee report headings, on legal cap paper, for the use of the members of the Convention.

The motion to adopt the resolution was lost.

Mr. ELDREDGE. Mr. President, I move that we now adjourn.


The PRESIDENT. With the consent of the gentleman who moved to adjourn, there will be a resolution here_a brief one_I think it ought to be read.

Mr. Ricks offered the following resolution which was read by the secretary:

Resolved, that the thanks of this Convention be extended to G. W. Heintz of the general passenger department of the Rio Grande Western Railway for the 500 maps of Utah furnished for the use of this Convention.

On motion the resolution was adopted.

Mr. ELDREDGE, I will now renew my motion to adjourn.


The Convention then, at 5:15 p. m., adjourned.

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