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NOTE: You may notice textual errors throughout this document, many of which have been left intact from the original text. Should you want to investigate the integrity of the original report, please refer to the original two printed volumes containing the official report of the proceedings and debates.

Prayer was offered by Right Rev. A. B. Leonard, of the Episcopal Church.

The roll was called by the secretary and the following members found to be in attendance:
Adams
Allen
Anderson
Barnes
Bowdle
Brandley
Button
Buys
Call
Chidester
Christianson
Clark
Coray
Corfman
Crane
Creer
Cunningham
Cushing
Eichnor
Eldredge
Emery
Evans, Utah
Evans, Weber
Farr
Francis
Gibbs
Goodwin
Green
Haynes
Halliday
Heyborne
Howard
Hughes
Hyde
Ivins
James
Johnson

The journal of the ninth day's session was read by the secretary, and approved.

Mr. VARIAN. Mr. President, I call for the special orders.

The PRESIDENT. The consideration of the rules will come up now as the special order for 2:30.

What is the pleasure of the Convention?

Mr. PIERCE. Mr. President, I move you that rule fifteen, the list of standing committees, subdivision ten, be made to read:

“Public buildings and state institutions not educational.”

Mr. VARIAN. Mr. President, I move, inasmuch as by ordinary rules of business {127} of this kind, the committee on rules ought to have this matter in charge, that the Convention proceed to read these rules, by sections or by rules, seriatim, and that amendments if they are offered be received as each section is read and the Convention in that way pass upon the rules in their order.

Carried.

The secretary then read rule one.

Mr. VARIAN. If there are no amendments, Mr. President, I suggest that we proceed to the next rule.

The PRESIDENT. If there is no objection the secretary will read the next rule.

Mr. VARIAN. I move that rule be adopted.

The PRESIDENT. If there is no objection the rule will be adopted.

The secretary then read rule three.

Mr. VARIAN. Mr. President, I move that rule be adopted and in explanation of the fifth paragraph, I will say that it is contemplated in under that head the Convention will go into the committee of the whole if it shall be necessary, there being no special order of business designated for that head.

Mr. THURMAN. Before putting that rule for adoption, I offer an amendment in line three, after the word same, “When the journal is corrected the same shall be deemed approved.” Unless it be taken as the sense of this Convention that the president must put the question every day as to whether the minutes are corrected or not, I think when corrections cease, the minutes should be deemed approved.

Mr. VARIAN. Will the gentleman permit me to make a suggestion, while he is on the floor? Isn't that the proper thing for the presiding officer to say, “If there is no objection, the minutes will stand approved.” Is it necessary to incorporate it in a standing rule?

Mr. THURMAN. If that is understood. all right.

Mr. VARIAN. I certainly so understand it. That is usually proper for the presiding officer to say, “If there are no further corrections, the minutes will stand approved as read.”

Mr. THURMAN. That accomplishes my purpose, if that is understood.

Mr. RICKS. Mr. President, Roberts' rules of order settle the question as stated by Mr. Varian.

Mr. COREY. Mr. President, I will ask for information, if the roll is called part of the order of business?

Mr. VARIAN. No, Mr. President, the roll call precedes the organizing as it were. We must call the roll to ascertain whether there is a quorum present. I move the adoption of that rule.

The PRESIDENT. If there is no objection, gentlemen, the rule will be adopted as read.

The secretary then read rule four.

Mr. VARIAN. I move to insert at the end of that rule after the word committee, in the last line, the following:

“Every proposition for insertion in the Constitution shall be plain pen or type written on one side only of

the sheet and without interlineation or erasure.”

Mr. VARIAN. Mr. President, it will be observed that that amendment does not propose to limit members in this particular as to other matters of less importance. It is conceived, however, that a matter that is to be proposed to the Convention and go through the various parliamentary stages and through the committees for insertion in the Constitution, ought to be prepared with care, at least as indicated by this amendment, and the members ought to be willing to take time enough to present a clean, clear proposition, without erasure or interlineation, so that those who have to read them_the clerks and the committees, will not have their difficulties increased in any event.
I move the adoption of that amendment and the adoption of the rule as amended.
{128}
The PRESIDENT. If there is no objection, it will be adopted.

The secretary then read rule five.

Mr. VARIAN. Mr. President, I move to adopt this rule.

The PRESIDENT. If there is no objection we will adopt this rule as read by the secretary.

The secretary then read rule six.

Mr. VARIAN. I move the adoption of the rule as read.    

The PRESIDENT. The rule will be adopted if there is no objection.

The secretary then read rule seven.

Mr. VARIAN. I move the adoption of the rule.

Mr. VAN HORNE. Mr. President, I suggest that “shall,” the last word in the fourth line of the rule, should be changed to “will.”

Mr. VARIAN. I think that would make it more awkward. I move the adoption of the rule as read.

The PRESIDENT. If there is no objection, the rule will be adopted as read. I would state to the Convention that the hour has arrived, at which you consented yesterday to meet the photographer below here. You can act your pleasure, however.

Mr. VARIAN. Mr. President, I hope we will go on and let the photographer wait. Let's get through with these rules.

Mr. HILL. I favor that proposition, Mr. President.

Mr. VARIAN. Mr. President, I move the adoption of that rule as read.

The PRESIDENT. If there is no objection the rule will be adopted as read.

Mr. ROBERTS. Mr. President, I propose the following amendment, by inserting the following words after “discourse” in the last line but one from the bottom, that it shall read as follows: “And while a member is speaking no member or other person shall entertain any private discourse to the disturbance of the speaker or pass between the member speaking and the chair.”
I think that as the rule stands, it is extremely strict; a, gentleman might say. a word or two.

Mr. VARIAN. Mr. President, I would like to suggest to the gentleman that that rule is not adopted simply for the convenience and comfort of the speaker because he happens to be addressing the house. The presumption is, that members want to listen to him. If they do not want to listen to him there is not much purpose in his speaking, and I presume these rules will be construed with reason, not literally. It is not intended to prevent whispering if it does not disturb others. I find it in the rules of other conventions.

The PRESIDENT. There was no second to the motion to amend, I believe. We had passed upon it anyhow.

The secretary then read rule nine.

Mr. VARIAN. I move its adoption.

The PRESIDENT. The rule will be adopted if there is no objection.

The secretary then read rule ten.

Mr. VARIAN. I move the adoption of that rule.

The PRESIDENT. If there is no objection the rule will be adopted.

The secretary then read rule eleven. Mr. VARIAN. I move the adoption of the rule.

The PRESIDENT. If there is no objection the rule will be adopted.

The secretary then read rule twelve.
Mr. VARIAN. I move its adoption.

The PRESIDENT. It will be adopted if there is no objection.

The secretary then read rule thirteen. Mr. VARIAN. I move its adoption as read.

The secretary then read rule fourteen.

Mr. VARIAN. The same motion as to that rule.

The PRESIDENT. If there is no objection the rule will be adopted.

The secretary then read rule fifteen as follows:

RULE XV. The president shall appoint {129} the following standing committees, to report upon the subjects named and such other matters as may be referred to them, viz:

1. Rules and method of procedure, to consist of five members, including the president, who shall be chairman.

2. Federal relations, to consist of seven members.

3. Preamble and declaration of rights, to consist of eleven members.

4. Legislative, to consist of fifteen members.

5. Judiciary, to consist of fifteen members.

6. Executive, to consist of fifteen members.

7. Elections and rights of suffrage, to consist of fifteen members.

8. Apportionment and boundaries, to consist of twenty-six members, one from each county.

9. Education and school land, to consist of eleven members.

10. Public buildings, and state institutions, to consist of eleven members.

11. Water rights, irrigation, and agriculture, to consist of fifteen members.

12. Municipal corporations, to consist of nine members.

13. Corporations other than municipal, to consist of fifteen members.

14. Public lands, seven members.

15. Revenue, taxation, and public debt, fifteen members.

16. Salaries of public officers, to consist of nine members.

18. Labor and arbitration, to consist of seven members.

19. Printing, to consist of three members.

20. Militia, to consist of five members.

21. Manufactures and commerce, to consist of seven members.

22. Ordinance, to consist of seven members.

23. Schedule and future amendments, and miscellaneous, to consist of nine members.

24. Accounts and expenses, to consist of three members.

25. Engrossment and enrollment, to consist of five members.

26. Compilation and arrangement, to consist of five members.

Mr. VARIAN. Mr. President, I move. to insert in subdivisions 14 and 15, in the proper place, the words, “to consist of” and make it conform throughout the rule, and also to strike out the numerals as they shall appear anywhere in the rule, concerning the number of persons and insert the appropriate word.

Mr. WHITNEY. I second the motion.

Mr. PIERCE. Mr. President, committee ten in the report of the committee on standing committees, the name of the committee should be “public buildings and state institutions not educational;” and in rule two the committee provided for by the committee on standing committees, “federal relations and compact.”

Mr. VARIAN. Why, Mr. President, is it necessary to encumber that name in that way? Does not “federal relations” cover the whole ground?

Mr. PIERCE. Mr. President, I have forgotten what the argument made was. There was an argument made before the committee to report on standing committees. There was an argument made for it; I don't know what it was, I didn't see the reason for it at the time.

Mr. VARIAN. Mr. President, I suggest that “federal relations” is very comprehensive.

Mr. MALONEY. Mr. President, it was done to conform with the requirements of the Enabling Act.

The PRESIDENT. As the chair understands it, the Convention adopted that committee report,

and those were the names that were actually given to those various committees.

Mr. VARIAN. This is the subsequent {130} action of the Convention. If they adopt this rule, that name will be changed. Now, it is important to have the names of the committees as concise as they may be without being misleading, and I am sure the words, “federal relations” carry with them impliedly everything connected with and concerning the relations of the Convention and the State with the general government.

Mr. EICHNOR. Mr. President, the Enabling Act does not use the words, “compact.”

(Reads from the Enabling Act.)

The PRESIDENT. The rule will be adopted as amended if there is no objection.

Mr. SQUIRES. Mr. President, I want to ask a question, if we make rule ten to read “public buildings and state institutions not educational,” in order to leave those institutions in charge of the commitee on education, why not specify in the committee on education, on page nine, that they shall have charge of public buildings of education? It only provides that they shall have charge of education and school lands. There is nothing said about buildings.

Mr. VARIAN. I don't understand that either of these amendments have been adopted, except those in relation to the numerals.

The PRESIDENT. Just in relation to the numerals, and “to consist of.”

Mr. VARIAN. I move the rule now be adopted as its stands.

Mr. PIERCE. Mr. President, I am opposed to that. It ought to be clearly defined in these committees what will be the duty of the committee on public buildings and state institutions and also what is the duty of the committee on education and public lands. It would seem to the committee that had that in charge that the committee on education and school lands should have the charge also of the subject of the educational institutions which are a part of the school system, and if our committees were left in this shape, that the title of rule ten, “public buildings and state institutions,” it might include in it all educational institutions, and therefore lead to confusion, and I think that ought to be corrected as it was formerly reported in the report of the committee on standing committees.

Mr. VARIAN. Mr. President, these names of the committees don't necessarily carry with them anything connected with that particular committee.

That depends upon the Convention. If anything arises concerning educational institutions, and the Convention are desirous, they will send it to the committee on militia or corporations. Ordinarily without objection, it would go to the committee on education. The title does not affect it in any way, but it is not worth while to challenge if the gentlemen insist upon it_     

Mr. SQUIRES. Mr. President, I think the words “educational institutions” should then be added to the title of the committee on education and school lands.

The PRESIDENT. The question is on Mr. Pierce's motion to amend.

The motion was agreed to.

Mr. ROBERTS. Mr. President, is the question now on the adoption of this rule?

The PRESIDENT. Yes, sir.

Mr. ROBERTS. I wish to offer an amendment combining subdivisions 22 and 23, uniting those committees and also the members of those two committees, and under the discussion on the adoption of this rule, will state the reasons for wanting to make that kind of an amendment. I will also consider this other suggestion a few moments ago in regard to having “compact” added to subdivision 2. “Federal relations and compact.”

You will find, Mr. President, that the Enabling Act, as read by the gentleman from Salt Lake a moment ago, provides {131} that said Convention shall provide by ordinance, irrevocable without the consent of the United States and the people of said State, first, that perfect toleration of religious sentiment, etc., and enumerates a number of things that are to be stipulated as a compact between this State and the United States. Then it also provides later on that the Convention by ordinance may provide for the election of a full set of state officers. Now, what I want to say on the subject is this, that, having observed with some care the matter that is usually put into a schedule, is the provision for the election of state officers, or officers for the state, and it seems to me that there will be, as it now stands, some conflict between the committee on schedule and future amendments and miscellaneous and this committee, as it now stands, on ordinance. But if the amendment is to make subdivision two read “federal relations and compact,” it will be understood that this matter that is provided for in the Enabling Act that shall be provided by ordinance irrevocable, etc., that that committee on compact and federal relations will have full charge of that matter, while if we unite subdivisions 22 and 23, making it read: 22. Schedule, ordinance, and future amendments, and miscellaneous,” and have the members of those two committees united, it would straighten out all this matter and leave no ground for conflict as to the prerogatives of these respective committees. Therefore, Mr. President, I move you that subdivisions 22 and 23 be made simply 22 and to read as follows: “22. Schedule, ordinance, and future amendments and miscellaneous, 16 members.”

Mr. VARIAN. Mr. President, I call for the first motion, the motion to amend is not seconded. I move the adoption of the rule as originally read.

The PRESIDENT. If there is no objection, the rule will be adopted as amended.

The secretary then read rule sixteen.

The PRESIDENT. If there is no objection the rule will be adopted as read.

The secretary then read rule seventeen.

Mr. VARIAN. I move its adoption.

The PRESIDENT. If there is no objection the rule will be adopted as read.

The secretary then read rule eighteen.

Mr. VARIAN. I move the adoption of the rule.

The PRESIDENT. If there is no objection it will be adopted as read.

The secretary then read rule nineteen
as follows:

RULE XIX. Every ordinance, proposition, or other matter reported by any committee for insertion in the Constitution shall, without further orders, be printed and referred to the committee of the whole.

Mr. VARIAN. Mr. President, by this rule, it was intended that all matter coming from a committee of this character, whether it was supported by two reports or by one, should at once go to the committee of the whole, so that the Convention could take its choice, as it were. It occurred to me in thinking it over and looking it over yesterday, that perhaps it is not so clearly put as it might be, and I move to amend it by striking out and inserting in this wise. Strike out in the second line, the words, “for insertion in the Constitution,” and insert after the word “shall” the word “with,” and before the word reported at the beginning of the line, “for insertion in the Constitution when,” so that the rule will read, if the amendment is carried, “every ordinance, proposition, and other matter for insertion in the Constitution, when reported by any committee shall, with all reports thereon, without further orders, be printed and referred to the committee of the whole.”

Mr. EVANS (Weber). Mr. President, would not that include a minority?
{132}
Mr. VARIAN. Yes, I stated that. That is my purpose for this amendment, to make it clear that the intention of the rule is, that when a minority report comes in_a minority report_it is entitled to the consideration of the Convention. They might adopt it, so that the question will come up: “I move to adopt the report,” but that both reports shall, by this rule, immediately go upon the committee of the whole calendar, to be taken up by the Convention when in the committee of the whole at the proper time, and then in that time the Convention will determine which of the two propositions or reports or matters submitted will be adopted by the Convention.

Mr. VARIAN, Yes, sir. I move the adoption of that rule as amended.

The PRESIDENT. If there is no objection the rule will be adopted as amended.
The secretary then read rule twenty.

Mr. VARIAN. I move its adoption.

The PRESIDENT. If there is no objection this rule will be adopted as read.

The secretary then read rule twenty-one.

Mr. VARIAN. I move the adoption of the rule.

The PRESIDENT. If there is no objection the rule will be adopted as read.

The secretary than read rule twenty-two as follows:

RULE XXII. So soon as any entire proposition for incorporation in the Constitution shall have been disposed of, such proposition, if agreed to by the Convention, shall be referred to the committee on compilation and arrangement, to be by that committee embodied in the Constitution. The committee shall have full power to revise the language used in the various propositions, and to arrange the same so as to be clearly expressive of the sense of the Convention, and make the instrument complete and consistent within itself. The committee having completed its revision, shall report all the articles of the Constitution to the Convention, when it shall be fully read, and when it is thus read the question shall be on the whole Constitution so received and amended, and if the same shall be decided in the affirmative, the Constitution, as a whole, shall be carefully enrolled under the supervision of the committee on enrollment and engrossment and signed by the president and members of the Convention.

Mr. VARIAN. Mr. President, that rule does not seem to me to be quite as clearly expressive of its intention as the committee on rules thought it was. The intention of the rule is not to give the committee on compilation and arrangement any authority whatever to make any substantial amendment or to do anything more than to harmonize the entire instrument as to its construction and phraseology. The further intention was that its supervising work was to be considered by the Convention when it was reported back. In that view, I desire to offer an amendment, after the word “read” in the third line on page twenty of the printed minutes, “when amendments as to arrangement and phraseology only may be made.”

Seconded.

Mr. VARIAN. Now, the Convention will observe that up to this period of time, when the several articles of the Constitution as a whole come back to the Convention, from the supervision of the

committee on arrangements and compilation, the committee has had three separate opportunities to offer amendments. First in the committee of the whole, which is an open field, without limit to debate or time. Second, when it comes back on its third reading from the committee to which it was referred.
{133}
It is presumed at that stage of the proposition the several views of the members were embodied by a majority vote, at least, which must be decisive in the proposition under discussion. That in substance it is arranged and constructed as the Convention desires to have it, so that nothing remains but the dressing of it up. For that reason it is committed to the committee on arrangement and compilation. Its functions are as I have stated. When it comes back from that committee, the design is not to permit any amendments of substance. The question then is on the Constitution as a whole.

All these several propositions, which have been considered in detail from time to time by the Convention in committee of the whole and in Convention and in the several committees, have been passed upon, and they have passed into judgment, but that it shall be open to amendments as to the phraseology and the harmony_the situation of one section or article with reference to the other, but no other. And now, with the gentleman's suggestion, I will read the amendment again. (Reads).

Mr. VAN HORNE. Mr. President, I would like to suggest to the chairman of the committee on rules, that a further amendment should be made to that rule by further inserting after the word “read” in the fourth line, “and amended.”

Mr. VARIAN. It might not be amended. Of course that goes without saying: If they amend, all right.

Mr. KERR. Mr. President, I wish to inquire of the gentleman whether the Convention shall have the power to offer or make any change in the Constitution after it is reported by the committee on engrossment and enrollment.

Mr. VARIAN. Not, except as stated; I will say Mr. President, there ought to be an end to all things. Not an amendment in substance, but an amendment in phraseology, and construction of the Instrument, yes_that is the intention.

Mr. RICKS. Mr. President, I would like to inquire what is meant by the provision on page nineteen, “the committee shall have full power to revise the language used in the various propositions.”

Mr. VARIAN. It is meant by that that they shall have power to correct any errors or inaccuracies in grammatical construction, syntax, orthography, or punctuation, or arrangement of several parts with each other and between themselves, the arrangement of the different sections, placing them in the order in which they shall be placed, and present the instrument back here as a whole for the final supervision in the same line only of the Convention. That is what that committee is for.
Perhaps they may not be quite so harmonious in the arrangement as the Convention might desire

and the Convention reserves the right to correct and supervise their work, but nothing further.

Mr. THATCHER. Mr. President, I would like to offer to the mover of that section the following suggestion:
Strike out the words, “to revise the language used in various propositions and to arrange the same so as to be clearly expressive of the sense of the Convention,” and insert the following: “The committee shall have full power to arrange, compile, and make the instrument complete and consistent within itself.” That will comprehend them all, the corrections contemplated in the proposed amendments, and make the rule much shorter, much more comprehensive and the committee itself will more fully understand its powers. It will need no explanation of its authority.

Mr. MALONEY. I second that motion.

Mr. ROBERTS. Mr. President, I wish to offer an amendment to the amendment of the gentleman from Cache County, in the way of a substitute for his amendment.
{134}
Insert in the fifth line before “language” the words “grammar of the” and then in the sixth line after “of” the words, “but not to alter.” The clause will then read if the amendment should be adopted:

“The committee shall have full power to revise the grammar and the language used in various propositions and to arrange the same so as to be clearly expressive of but not to alter the sense of the Convention, to make the instrument consistent within itself,” etc.

The SECRETARY. That would do away with Mr. Thatcher's motion.

Mr. Roberts' motion to amend was seconded.

Mr. ROBERTS. Mr. President, I am of the opinion that the powers conferred upon this committee should be somewhat carefully guarded. I grant you, as the gentleman from Salt Lake has stated, that the Convention would have an opportunity to revise all the work of this committee on compilation and arrangement, but when they shall make their report it will be very near the close of the session of this Convention, and it is possible for a committee of this kind even not intentionally to so alter the language, in correcting as they suppose the phraseology, as to affect the legal meaning of the term, and therefore, the purpose I take it, of all these amendments is to limit and definitely express the powers of that committee. It seems to me if we make this clause read as I have suggested it will accomplish the purpose that we are aiming at.

Mr. VARIAN. Mr. President, I don't see that the amendment offered by the gentleman from Davis does anything more than to make the sentence involve unnecessarily. I find no difficulty with the language that is complained of. It was taken from the rule of the constitutional convention of Wyoming. That part of the rule reads as follows:

“The committee shall have full power to revise the language used in the various propositions. “

It means just what it says. It needs no criticism. It is not involved; it is not labored in any way; of course it does not mean that the committee on compilation and arrangement will make a new Constitution or a new section, I hope the rule will stand as originally presented by the committee on rules.

Mr. GOODWIN. Mr. President, it seems to me that this is all right and fully explains itself. The whole thing might be contained in one thing. The committee shall have full power to “edit” the various propositions and make the instrument complete in itself. That word in the second line would make the line plain enough. The objection made by Mr. Roberts does not count, because with all the instruments, it is very possible for the committee to work in a little change themselves. It seems to me the rule is all right. We might spend another hour or two but it carries the whole idea. Simply a smoothing-out committee. I judge so personally by the language, that it is simply to get it before this Convention in readable shape. It seems to me it is better to leave the rule as it is.

The PRESIDENT. As the chair understands it, the motion has been made to adopt the rule in its entirety. It has been amended by Mr. Thatcher and a second amendment has been made by Mr. Roberts. The proposition as I understand {135} it, is on the amendment of Mr. Roberts.

Mr. GOODWIN. A substitute.

Mr. ROBERTS. That is right.

Mr. Roberts' motion to amend was lost.

The PRESIDENT. The question is on the motion of Mr. Thatcher.

Mr. KIMBALL (Salt Lake). Mr. President, I don't understand Mr. Roberts' amendment to conflict with that of Mr. Thatcher's.

Mr. THATCHER. Mr. President, it very much conflicts with it. My amendment contemplates simply the striking out of these words, “to revise the language used in the various propositions and to arrange the same so as to be clearly expressive of the sense of the Convention.” Those are the words that are stricken out by my amendment.

Mr. THURMAN. Mr. President, there can be but one question arise under the phraseology as it is, “the same so as to be clearly expressive of the sense of the Convention.” Now, if that means the sense of the Convention as previously expressed, we will pass upon the question. It is

deficient as it is; if it could be construed to mean the sense of the Convention at the time they are amending it, so as to perhaps give it a different sense from that at the time it was being passed upon, it ought to be amended. In my own judgment, it expresses as it is in the written copy the fact as we want it, “expressive of the sense of the Convention as previously expressed.”

Mr. VARIAN. Wouldn't it be a forced construction? I would ask the gentleman.

Mr. THURMAN. I think so.

The PRESIDENT. The question is on the motion of Mr. Thatcher to amend.

The motion is lost.

Mr. VAN HORNE. Mr. President, before that motion is finally put, I think there ought to be a provision made by which the committee on revision making its report to the Convention shall report to them the changes that have been made by the committee, in order that the Convention may have their attention called to the particulars in which the committee have changed the expressed sense of the Convention.

The PRESIDENT. I would ask Mr. Varian whether there was any provision of that kind made?

Mr. VARIAN. The committee reporting? Of course that would be a part of its duties. I didn't suppose it was neeessary to put down everything here in this rule. I say the committee on rules didn't suppose so. If they make any change of course they will report. If they don't it will be easily ascertained, because the printed articles as they went to that committee are in the hands of each member, and I presume that each member will read for himself as the clerk reads the whole Constitution as it is presented for final adjustment.

Mr. WHITNEY. If that means the adoption of the rule, I desire to move for another slight amendment before the rule is adopted.

Mr. VARIAN. Yes, it does mean that.

Mr. WHITNEY. I merely wish to suggest that the correct name of the committee is “engrossment and enrollment.”

Mr. DRIVER. Mr. President, may I be excused?

The PRESIDENT. Yes.

I would call the attention of the gentlemen again to the desire of these photographers that you made an agreement with to meet at three o'clock, and it is now four.

Mr. RICKS. Mr. President, if we agreed to meet those photographers, I move we take a recess for ten minutes and go down and meet them.

The Convention re-assembled after recess and the following proceedings were had:

Messrs. Low of Cache, and Farr, were excused.

The consideration of the special order was resumed.

The secretary then read rule twenty-three.

Mr. VARIAN. I move its adoption.

The. PRESIDENT. If there is no objection the rule will be adopted.

The secretary then read rule twenty-four.

Mr. VARIAN. I move its adoption.

The PRESIDENT. If there is no objection the rule will be adopted as read.

The secretary then read rule twenty-five.

Mr. VARIAN. I move its adoption.

The PRESIDENT. If there is no objection the rule will be adopted.

The secretary then read rule twenty-six.

Mr. VARIAN. I move its adoption.

The. PRESIDENT. If there is no objection the rule will be adopted.

The secretary then read rule twenty-seven.

Mr. VARIAN. I move its adoption. The PRESIDENT. If there is no objection the rule will be adopted.

The secretary then read rule twenty-eight.

Mr. VARIAN. I move its adoption.

The PRESIDENT. If there is no objection the rule will be adopted.

Mr. VARIAN. I move its adoption.

The PRESIDENT. It will be adopted as read if there is no objection. The secretary then read rule thirty.

Mr. VARIAN. I move its adoption.

The PRESIDENT. If there is no objection, gentlemen, the rule will be adopted are read.

The secretary then read rule thirty-one.

Mr. VARIAN. I move its adoption.

The PRESIDENT. If there is no objection, the rule will be adopted.

The secretary then read rule thirty-two.

Mr. VARIAN. I move its adoption.

Mr. WELLS. Mr. President, I would like to ask the chairman why that is five days before the final adjournment?

Mr. VARIAN. The rule is provided for the purpose of directing the attention of the Convention to the matter in order that it may direct the attention of the committee to the duty of engrossing and enrolling the Constitution. The operation of this rule requires some future action. I presume it is inserted in the rules of these conventions in order that the attention of the convention may be called to it.

The PRESIDENT. The rule will be adopted as read if there are no objections.
Mr. WELLS. I don't understand what the Convention will be doing for five days after that has been done.

Mr. THURMAN. We will be getting our photographs taken.

The PRESIDENT. Does this gentleman object to the rule?

Mr. WELLS. No, I have no amendment to offer.

The PRESIDENT. The rule will be adopted as read.

The secretary then read rule thirty-three.

Mr. VARIAN. I move its adoption.

The secretary then read rule thirty-four as follows:

RULE XXXIV. The following classes of persons besides officers and members of the Convention shall be entitled to admission to the floor of the Convention during the session thereof, viz:

1. The governors, secretaries, auditor, treasurer and ex-governors.
{137}
2. The justices of the supreme court and ex-justices thereof.

3. The delegate to Congress and ex-delegates.

4. Members of the Utah commission.

5. Reporters of the press, as provided by these rules.

6. Ladies.

No other person shall be admitted to the floor during the session of the Convention unless the Convention shall otherwise order.

Mr. VARIAN. Mr. President, the committee on rules overlooked one courtesy in that rule. I move to insert a new subdivision, after sixth as follows: “The probate judge and members of the county court of Salt Lake County.” These are the gentlemen as a body who have given the use of this hall to this Convention. It would seem appropriate that we should recognize it in this way.

The PRESIDENT. Mr. Varian, would you include the mayor of Salt Lake City?

Mr. EVANS (Weber). Mr. President, I move to amend that by adding the mayor of Salt Lake City.

Mr. VARIAN. I accept it.

Mr. EVANS (Weber). And that it be inserted as subdivision five and that subdivisions five and six be made six and seven.

Mr. KIESEL. And the city council of Salt Lake City, I wish to amend.

Mr. VARIAN. I object to that.

Mr. KIESEL. The probate judge and all the officials_I don't see why we cannot have the mayor and all the officials_

Mr. VARIAN. I accept Mr. Evans' amendment, I don't accept the other.

Mr. KIESEL. Has my proposition been seconded.

The PRESIDENT. No, sir.

Mr. KIESEL. I would like to put that to a vote if it is seconded, that the city council also have the privileges of the floor.

Motion seconded.

Mr. VARIAN. Mr. President, the committee on rules considered this matter and it was manifest to them, as it must be manifest to the Convention, that we must draw the line somewhere, owing to the limited accommodations, and we did not care to make a distinction that might be complained of, and drew the lines so closely that we overlooked a small matter of courtesy that we ought not to have overlooked, namely the county court; but for that I should have no objection myself and I presume the committee would not, to incorporating in the rules a provision admitting the city councils and mayors of all the cities in the Territory and members of the Legislature.

Mr. KIESEL. Mr. President, it is a mere matter of courtesy. Mr. Varian knows just as well as I that these gentlemen are not going to invade this room here. It is just simply a matter of courtesy and they are entitled to it. We are holding this Convention in their city here. We are under their protection. I think they are entitled to it.

Mr. EICHNOR. Mr. President, I will state to the members of this Convention that the matter was first proposed in a meeting of the city council; that Councilman O'Meara introduced a resolution that an arrangement should be made to hold the Constitutional Convention in this building, and that as the city council set the movement on foot, I think we should show them the courtesy.

The PRESIDENT. Gentlemen, you have heard the motion to amend the resolution and extend the courtesy to the city council. The original motion was to extend the courtesy to the probate judge, county court and mayor of Salt Lake City. All who are in favor of the motion of Mr. Kiesel will say aye; opposed, no.

Carried.
{138}
The rule as amended was then adopted.

The secretary then read rule thirty-five.

Mr. VARIAN. I move its adoption.

Rule thirty-six was then read by the secretary.

The PRESIDENT. If no objection the rule will be adopted as read.

Rule thirty-seven was read by the secretary as follows:

RULE XXXVII. The standing rules of the Convention and the regular orders of business shall not be suspended or interrupted unless by a vote of two-thirds of the delegates present.

Mr. VARIAN. That rule as it stands met and does meet with my approbation. It has been suggested, however, that perhaps it is a little too stringent_that a majority of the delegates present ought to have the power to so order and direct the business as they may see fit. For the purpose of testing the sense of the Convention upon that, I move the amendment, by striking out the words, “two-thirds,” in line three and inserting “majority.”

Seconded.

Mr. EVANS (Weber). What would be the necessity of a rule at all on that question, then? That is a power that the body has.

Mr. VARIAN. Mr. President, I quite agree with that, but I thought inasmuch as I had the matter in charge and heard the gentlemen speak about it_I thought it nothing more than fair to have it brought up and acted upon.

Mr. EVANS (Weber). Mr. President, I am in favor of the rule as it stands. It is an ordinary rule enforced in all deliberative bodies, and such a rule as that would probably prevent just such a scene as we had a few moments ago, when we were in session deliberating upon the adoption of these rules_that we might adjourn for the purpose of going out and having photographs taken. I believe the rule ought to stand. I think such disgraceful proceedings ought not to obtain in this body.

Mr. HART. Mr. President, that is the usual rule I believe for the amendment of rules of a deliberative body to require a two-thirds vote, that is the provision Mr. Roberts names. I think that is the rule required in Congress to amend the rules. Otherwise it does not amount to the dignity of rules, if a bare majority can amend them at any time. We certainly should have a two- thirds vote to change a rule.

Mr. CANNON. Mr. President, I would like to move if it is in order an amendment to the amendment by striking out the word “present” and inserting the word, “elected” so that it will read, “unless by a vote of a majority of the delegates elected.”

Mr. VARIAN. Mr. President, that is not seconded, but I want to suggest, if I may be permitted, that that would probably tie the Convention up in a more stringent way than it desires. There may

occasions arise when we want to suspend the rules. It ought to be only upon occasion when the rules should be suspended. For that reason a reasonable number of delegates present are required to assent to it in order that the business may be speeded.

You may safely entrust it as a general rule from day to day to two-thirds of the delegates present in the direction of the business to act under these rules. Now, if you require two-thirds of the delegates elected_I assume nothing of that kind would come up here, but it would put it in the power of a small minority to obstruct the will of the body.

Mr. CANNON. My motion is not two-thirds of the delegates elected, but a. majority of the delegates elected.

Motion seconded.

Mr. VARIAN. Mr. President, that would take from the majority of the quorum the power to act in certain {139} cases. Our rules contemplate that a majority of a quorum in the transaction of all ordinary business may dispose of the business before the Convention_not to pass propositions for insertion in the Constitution, but as to all other matters_ordinary resolutions, concerning the business of the Convention and a disposition of any other matters, which may be in hand, are committed to the majority of the quorum. Now, it might be necessary, there being a quorum present, and not perhaps a majority of the members elected voting one way, in order to carry on the business to have certain rules here suspended. I find that this rule is one well known. It seems to be recognized everywhere. They have had it in Congress and in all constitutional conventions that I have observed the proceedings of, and it seems to be well settled in parliamentary proceedings, as well as the text books on the subject.

Mr. CANNON. Mr. President, I would say as mover of this amendment I understood Mr. Varian to say that he favored the proposition of two-thirds of the delegates present.

Mr. VARIAN. Yes.

Mr. CANNON. Two-thirds of the delegates on any occasion when we have been present, I believe would have been more than a majority of the delegates elect.

Mr. VARIAN. That might be, but there might be a case where it wouldn't be.

Mr. CANNON. I think we should not change the rule without at least a majority of those who have been elected voting upon that question in favor of a change.

Mr. VARIAN. Will the gentleman permit me to ask him a question? Do we understand this rule provides for a change of the rule? It is only for a temporary suspension. The other rules provide that a change in the rules can only be made after a reference to the committee on rules, a report from that committee, and then it can be done. This provides only for a temporary suspension for a day.

Mr. Varian's motion to amend was rejected.

Mr. VARIAN. I move the adoption of the rule.

The PRESIDENT. The rule will be adopted, without there is objection.

The secretary then read rule thirty-eight.

Mr. VARIAN. I move its adoption.

The PRESIDENT. If there is no objection the rule will be adopted as read.

Mr. VARIAN. Mr. President, I move that the rules as a whole as they have been amended by the Convention be adopted as the standing rules of the Convention.

Mr. JAMES. Mr. Varian, will you allow me just a moment before you put this motion? Wouldn't it be well to grant some powers to the president to fill vacancies on the committees as they occur?

Mr. VARIAN. I think it is here. He has that power.

Mr. JAMES. I haven't seen that power.

Mr. VARIAN. It is not in terms perhaps, but of course_     

The PRESIDENT. It is implied.

Mr. EVANS (Weber). It gives him the power to add to any committee if there is a vacancy.

Mr. Varian's motion was seconded.

Mr. WHITNEY. Mr. President, I wish to suggest a slight amendment in rule three, if it is admissible in this stage. In the first line of rule three, order of business, I move for the insertion of the words between the words “session” and “shall,” “after roll call and prayer,” so that it will read, “the first business of each day's session after roll call and prayer shall be the reading of the journal,” {140} etc. I consider roll call a part of the business of the session, as much as reading the minutes.

Mr. EVANS (Weber). I second the motion.

Mr. VARIAN. Don't you mean “prayer and roll call?” Transpose that.

Mr. VARIAN. The minority needs the prayer as much as the quorum.

Mr. CANNON. I would suggest that the prayer usually comes first.

Mr. WHITNEY. It did to-day, but I think it is out of order.

The PRESIDENT. I followed the rule of the Wyoming people in that matter.

Mr. WHITNEY. My impression is, the roll call should come first.

Mr. EVANS (Weber). Suppose we should have divine exercises and after that the roll were called and there was found not to be a quorum present, the question would be, would the prayer avail anything? [Laughter.]

The PRESIDENT. We would be that much ahead.

Mr. EVANS (Weber). I agree that we ought first to have the roll call.

The PRESIDENT. The question is on the amendment of the rule as suggested by Mr. Whitney.

The motion was carried.

The PRESIDENT. The question is on the motion of Mr. Varian to adopt the rules as a whole, with the amendments.

The motion was agreed to.

Mr. VARIAN. Mr. President, I also move the adoption of the report of the committee on rules, recommending that the sum of fourteen dollars, I think it is, be allowed and paid.

Mr. RICKS. That was passed upon.

Mr. VARIAN. No; it was not passed upon; it is in getting up these rules.

The PRESIDENT. The question is on the motion to adopt the report of the committee, and that the sum of fourteen dollars be paid as recommended.

Carried.

Mr. VARIAN. Mr. President, I also may be out of order, but I ask leave to make a motion that should have been made on the adoption of the rules; I move that the committee on printing be instructed to have printed such number of copies as in their judgment they may think necessary.

Mr. VARIAN. Well, that is all right.

Mr. HART. Mr. Varian's motion a moment ago on the adoption of the report of the committee on rules, mentioned one item of recommendation only in those minutes. There are two items there, and his motion should either be made to adopt the recommendations of the committee on rules without specifying one particular matter therein, or else there should be a separate motion now on another recommendation contained in the report of the committee on rules. The last sentence, “and we further recommend that the appointment of committees heretofore made be ratified.” I would suggest_     

Mr. VARIAN. Make a motion.

Mr. HART. I would suggest that the clerk make your motion to read that the recommendation of the committee on rules be adopted without specifying the fourteen dollars or this other matter, and then it will cover the whole thing.

Mr. VARIAN. Now, as I understand it, consent was asked that that motion may be deemed to include the other recommendation of the committee, that the appointment by the chair of the committees as heretofore made be ratified.

The PRESIDENT. If there is no objection to the recommendation it will be so amended by the secretary.

Mr. IVINS. Will the chair please {141} state Mr. Varian's motion that is now before the house? Didn't you move that a certain number of copies of these_

Mr. VARIAN. I did and was informed by the chairman of the committee on printing, that that had already passed yesterday.

Mr. IVINS. Mr. President, I wish to move as an amendment to that motion that the names and addresses of the members of this Convention be included in the same pamphlet in which the rules are.

Mr. LAMBERT. I will say for your information that was all included in the resolution of yesterday.

Mr. IVINS. I was not present yesterday.

Mr. CANNON. If there is no other business, I move we now adjourn.

Carried.

The Convention then at 4:55 p. m. adjourned.