Members Present:

Sen. Terry Spencer,

Sen. Michael G. Waddoups,

Senate Chairs

Rep. Blake D. Chard,

Rep. A. Lamont Tyler,

House Chairs

Sen. Lyle W. Hillyard

Sen. Paula Julander

Sen. David H. Steele

Sen. Pete Suazo

Rep. Patrice M. Arent

Rep. Trisha Beck

Rep. Chad E. Bennion

Rep. Duane Bourdeaux

Rep. DeMar "Bud" Bowman

Rep. Afton B. Bradshaw

Rep. Perry L. Buckner

Rep. Gary F. Cox

Rep. Greg J. Curtis

Rep. David L. Gladwell

Rep. Neal B. Hendrickson

Rep J. W. "Bill" Hickman

Rep. David L. Hogue

Rep. Susan J. Koehn

Rep. Carl R. Saunders

Rep. LaWanna "Lou" Shurtliff

Rep. Marlon O. Snow

Rep. Nora B. Stephens

Rep. John E. Swallow

Rep. David Ure

Rep. Glenn L. Way

Members Absent:

Sen. L. Alma "Al" Mansell

Rep. Martin R. Stephens

Members Excused:

Rep. Katherine M. Bryson

Staff Present:

Ms. Chyleen A. Arbon,

Research Analyst

Ms. Susan Creager Allred,

Ms. Tani Pack Downing, and

Ms. Esther Chelsea-McCarty,

Associates General Counsel

Ms. Angela Kelley,

Ms. Glenda S. Whitney,

Legislative Secretaries

Note: A list of others present and a copy of materials distributed in the meeting are on file in the Office of Legislative Research and General Counsel.

1. Call to Order and Committee Business - Chair Chard called the meeting to order at 2:15 p.m. He explained that the Judiciary Interim Committee and the Law Enforcement and Criminal Justice Interim Committee have met together because of the recent tragic shooting incidents that have occurred not only in Utah but in Colorado. He noted that all the handouts are to be part of the record. He said if anyone had something to present to the committee, to please provide a written statement. Chair Chard anticipated that at a future meeting the public may have the opportunity to make brief presentations.

Chair Chard said these tragic incidents present a complex problem. Whether the solutions are policy changes or changes in process, the fact is that some people in our society should be restricted from having access to weapons.

MOTION: Sen. Waddoups moved to approve the minutes of the April 21, 1999 Law Enforcement and Criminal Justice Interim Committee meeting. The motion passed unanimously, with Rep. Duane Bourdeaux absent for the vote.

MOTION: Rep. Tyler moved to approve the minutes of the April 21, 1999 Judiciary Interim Committee meeting. The motion passed unanimously, with Rep. Curtis and Rep. Swallow absent for the vote.

2. Review of Current State and Federal Laws and Procedures - Ms. Tani Pack Downing, Associate General Counsel, reviewed the right to bear arms constitutional provisions and firearms laws, including the Brady criminal background check requirements, checks for mental illness done by other states, and laws relating to juveniles and firearms. She referred the committee members to information she provided in the mailing packet on these topics. In addition, Ms. Downing discussed current law regarding use and possession of explosives. She provided an outline titled, "Requirements for Purchasing/Possessing a Firearm," as well as copies of the Utah weapons and explosives laws.

3. Possible Strategies to Reduce Gun Violence - Ms. Chyleen A. Arbon, Research Analyst, referred to the "Supplemental Materials for Joint Meeting" and presented an overview on possible strategies to reduce gun violence. She discussed ideas from various sources such as other states, federal proposals, and strategies highlighted in the media. Information discussed included programs from the book "Promising Strategies to Reduce Gun Violence," prepared by the Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention, February 1999. A copy of the book was provided to committee members. Ms. Arbon noted that the presentation sets out a wide range of choices, but does not contain all possible options; research and assistance will be provided for any strategy the committee desires.

4. Recommendations from Various Entities

Ms. Meredith Alden, Director, Utah Division of Mental Health, explained that the State Board of Mental Health was instructed by the governor to complete a report regarding gun issues involving the mentally ill. The report is to include recommendations regarding gun ownership by persons with mental illness. Ms. Alden said the board will recommend some changes to the involuntary treatment statute. She explained that the current standard for involuntary commitment is whether the person is an immediate danger to himself or others. Ms. Alden indicated that the board will likely recommend that some changes be made to the civil commitment law.

Ms. Alden said the board will likely oppose compiling broad lists of people with mental illness because mental illness is fairly common. She said that creating such lists would stigmatize people with mental illness and could discourage people from seeking treatment. The board would likely also recommend resource development and increased funding of the mental health system.

Rep. Hogue asked if there is a way of providing information for certain types of mental illnesses like schizophrenia to the Bureau of Criminal Identification (BCI) to be included in a background check. Ms. Alden said there is not a database that would collect that information. She pointed out that the courts would have a record of involuntary commitments.

Rev. Jeffery Sells, Ph.D., Episcopal Diocese of Utah, distributed a handout titled "Testimony for the Joint Meeting." He offered the following suggestions regarding the violent use of firearms: 1) repeal the requirement that churches post signs prohibiting guns; 2) restrict the places in which weapons may be carried; 3) place more restraint on gun sales and purchases; 4) provide penalties for infringements of such laws, and for careless storage and use of weapons; and 5) provide for accessible and safe locations where people may voluntarily and anonymously dispose of weapons without question or penalty.

Sen. Spencer asked that if the legislature passed legislation to prohibit guns in churches, whether the church would assume liability if someone is shot or causes damage. Rev. Sells said that was a good question and is part of the process of coming to a solution regarding this issue.

Mr. Elwood Powell, Chair, Utah Shooting Sports Council, indicated his organization represents views from firearm owners in the state and introduced Mr. Brian Judy with the National Rifle Association.

Mr. Judy observed that violent acts committed by other means, such as a vehicle, often receive much less publicity than violent crimes committed with guns. He suggested that perhaps fewer "copy cat" offenses using firearms would occur if there were less high profile media coverage of these events. Mr. Judy also blamed gun violence on permissive parents, dysfunctional and broken families, families where both parents work, and the media and entertainment industries.

Mr. Judy distributed a handout, "Utah Laws Which Would Have Been Violated if Littleton Happened in Utah." He said the government must enforce the laws already on the books. He said that if the Littleton, Colorado high school shooting had taken place in Utah, in his estimation the acts would have violated 31 Utah laws, and that 11 Utah laws would have been violated before the shootings took place.

Mr. Powell then distributed two handouts, "Utah Laws Related to Firearms and Weapons" along with his presentation outline. He reviewed the recommendations to reestablish personal responsibility: 1) change the process of dealing with mentally ill people and gun access; 2) appropriate more money for law enforcement; 3) eliminate plea bargaining for weapons violations; 4) reestablish governmental employees' personal accountability; 5) do not change the statute regarding weapons in churches; 6) increase parental responsibility; 7) repeal the child abuse provisions in Subsections §76-5-109(1)(c) and (3) of the Utah Code that make inflicting physical injury, as opposed to serious physical injury, a criminal offense; 8) do not change requirements of gun shows and the entertainment industry; and 9) do not change the statute regarding concealed weapon permits.

Mr. William Nash, Chair, Utahns Against Gun Violence, distributed two handouts, "Utahns Against Gun Violence Executive Summary" and "Presentation Materials," from which he gave his remarks. He expressed the need to pass effective legislation that keeps guns away from children, criminals, and the mentally ill. He said there is no simple solution to this problem but noted that the recent tragedies in the schools would not have taken place if the students did not have access to guns.

Mr. Nash presented the following recommendations to address this issue: 1) assert the principle that Utah schools are "Gun-free Zones," including prohibiting concealed weapons in schools; 2) require gun owners to secure firearms from access by juveniles; 3) raise the minimum age for possession of a handgun to 21; 4) require background checks on all firearm sales, especially at gun shows; 5) prohibit juveniles who commit violent crimes from ever owning firearms; 6) add violent misdemeanors and weapon violations to background checks; 7) institute a 5-day waiting period for the purchase of a handgun; and 8) utilize appropriate mental illness information in background checks.

Mr. Chris Sleater distributed written comments to the committee and voiced concerns regarding Utah's gun laws. Mr. Sleater's wife, Anne, was shot and killed in January 1999 during a shooting spree at the Triad Center in Salt Lake City. He explained that the woman who shot his wife had a criminal record, including making threats with a knife, and a history of mental illness. Mr. Sleater said this mentally ill person should never have been able to purchase a handgun, indicating that the system failed and needs to be fixed.

Mr. Sleater recommended that the committee carefully consider the laws relating to background checks and the purchase of guns. He also recommended that serious and violent crimes in a person's criminal record not be dismissed or expunged. He suggested that background checks should include information about mental illness issues of the individual, especially when violent acts have resulted in prosecution. He concluded by recommending a waiting period of three days or more for the purchase of firearms.

Commissioner Craig Dearden, Utah Department of Public Safety (DPS), referred to the shootings at the LDS Family History Library and Triad Center and said in both incidents these people with histories of mental illness committing the shootings were carrying concealed weapons. He expressed concern that currently there is no way to run a check to determine if certain barriers to gun ownership exist, including if a person has given up his citizenship, is an illegal alien, or is a dishonorably discharged military person. He said DPS is moving forward with a database that will connect to the courts to expand background checks on gun buyers and concealed weapons applicants.

Commissioner Dearden explained that gun shows are a problem because when licensed dealers turn a person away due to information found in the background check, that person may then simply go to an unlicensed seller at the next table and purchase a gun. He informed the committee that the governor has asked that an advisory committee review the following issues: 1) ownership of guns by the mentally ill; 2) ownership of guns by certain convicted people; and 3) guns in schools, churches, and private homes. He said DPS does not want to infringe on anyone's ability to own a firearm but it is trying to make Utah safe.

Mr. Steve Anderson, Investigator, Bureau of Criminal Identification, and Mr. Bruce Brown, Manager, Bureau of Criminal Identification, along with Mr. Dearden, responded to questions of the committee.

5. Committee Discussion and Future Focus

MOTION: Sen. Hillyard moved that the committees not meet jointly next month, but instead split the issues up as to not duplicate study items. He also moved that the four chairs at a minimum and one minority party member from each committee meet to allocate the issues to be discussed by each committee at the June interim meeting. The motion passed unanimously, with Reps. Curtis, Hickman, and Koehn absent for the vote.

6. Other Item / Adjourn

MOTION: Rep. Buckner moved to adjourn the meeting. The motion passed unanimously, with Reps. Curtis, Hickman, and Koehn absent for the vote. Chair Chard adjourned the meeting at 5:05 p.m.