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Legislative Audit Subcommittee - December 09, 2024
445 State Capitol
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President Adams called the meeting to order at 5:00 PM
Recording 1
Committee Business
President Adams made a motion to approve the minutes from the November 19, 2024 meeting.
Audit Report Presentations
Mr. Jesse Martinson, Audit Manager introduced A Performance Audit of Utah's Election System: Strengthening Election Integrity (Report # 2024-20).
A Performance Audit of Utah's Election System (Report #2024-20)
Mr. Martinson and Mr. Jake Dinsdale, Senior Audit Supervisor, presented on the findings of the audit.
Mr. Dinsdale responded to a question from Senator Escamilla on establishing an administrative rule to govern the election process.
Mr. Dinsdale responded to a follow-up question from Senator Escamilla regarding an administrative rule and the county clerk's responsibilities.
Mr. Dinsdale responded to a question from Representative Romero regarding statutory rules and accountability for errors made.
Mr. Dinsdale responded to a question from Representative Moss regarding the new process for accounting for death records.
Representative Moss commented on the issues still being found with voter death records.
Mr. Martinson and Mr. Dinsdale continued with the presentation on the findings of the audit.
Mr. Dinsdale responded to a question from Senator Escamilla regarding funding for cameras in county offices.
Mr. Dinsdale responded to questions from Speaker Schultz regarding the statutory requirements for and the issues found due to clerks not reviewing paper ballots,
Mr. Dinsdale responded to questions from Speaker Schultz regarding; - deceased people being on the voter rolls and able to vote, - difficulty of a deceased persons voter identification being used to vote in person, - the length of time it takes to identify a dead person - ballots being batched on receipt, - issues with proper procedures of chain of custody for drop boxes, - clarification of setting standards for checking signatures on petitions versus ballots, - clarification on differences in the signature verification process, - error measurements and assumptions surrounding the signature verification processes, - extra steps taken in the signature verification process for ballots.
Representative Romero commented on the importance of best practices in the signature verification process and also on the vote by mail process, which is popular in the state of Utah, and allows many constituents to vote who would otherwise not be able to.
Mr. Dinsdale responded to comments made by Representative Romero regarding recommendations to better define the admin rules and hold the county clerks accountable for their actions.
Mr. Dinsdale responded to a question from Senator Escamilla regarding the issues with oversight of accountability.
Mr. Kade Minchey, Legislative Auditor General, commented on the audit process and the accountability included. He stated that when the same issues are documented a second time on a second audit then the auditors look at implementation.
Mr. Dinsdale commented that county clerks are not resistant to following processes, but there are issues in terms of oversight.
Mr. Dinsdale responded to a question from Speaker Schultz clarifying if the number of deceased persons found on the voter roll was accurate or likely to change.
Mr. Ryan Cowley, Director of Elections, Office of the Lieutenant Governor, responded to the findings of the audit.
Mr. Cowley and Mr. Dinsdale responded to a question from Speaker Schultz regarding the timing of the information received and used for data analysis purposes in the Lieutenant Governor's Office.
Mr. Minchey commented that if the Lieutenant Governor's Office completed the same data analysis check that the auditors performed, the same gaps would have been discovered.
Mr. Dinsdale responded to a comment made by Mr. Cowley regarding the comparison of the master list to the voter registration list.
Mr. Cowley responded to the comments made by the auditors on following statute for comparing the master list to the voter registration list.
Mr. Cowley responded to a question from Speaker Schulz regarding why more legislation is required for the authority to get the appropriate master list.
Mr. Cowley continued his response presentation.
Mr. Cowley responded to questions from Representative Romero regarding; - implementation, - accountability, - voter registration.
Representative Romero voiced her appreciation for this audit and its recommendations. She stated the recommendations should not be used as ammunition to discontinue the vote by mail process.
Mr. Cowley responded to comments made by President Adams regarding:; - participation rates, - signature verification, - maintaining the voting processes we currently have here in Utah with the issues found.
Mr. Cowley responded to questions from Senator Escamilla regarding the current voting participation rate compared to the average participation rate prior to initiating the vote by mail process and the problem executing the level of integrity required.
Speaker Schultz commented on concerns that he has regarding; - several issues discussed in the 2022 audit are still issues today, - oversight was given to the county clerks after the last audit and yet the same issues still occur, - additional funding was given to the Lieutenant Governor's office to resolve some of the issues addressed in the 2022 audit, but they are not resolved.
Mr. Cowley responded to questions from Speaker Schultz regarding; - county clerks auditing their own work, - issues with voter rolls, - issues with people having 2 voter identifications issued, - signature verification process error rate, - signature verification standards.
Mr. Dinsdale commented on the results of the 2022 audit on the signature verification standards. He discussed what other states have done to improve their processes.
Mr. Cowley responded to questions from Speaker Schultz regarding; - what can be done differently in the signature verification process, - concerns surrounding the subjective-ness of the signature verification process and the error rate discussed in the audit, - comparing the security of the vote by mail process to the vote in person process, - if Mr. Cowley disagreed with the results of the last audit, - the differences between the signature verification process and the ballot signatures, - accurately verify signatures when it is a subjective process, - people filling out the ballots for family members.
Speaker Schultz commented on voter rolls not being at the standards the Legislatures are comfortable with and questioned if with the signature verification process we have can vote by mail be as secure as in person voting? He then stated that the audits show this is not the case.
Senator Vickers appreciated the dialogue that has happened in this audit subcommittee meeting. He gave thanks to the good work of the audit team which allowed the Legislatures to ask the questions they did based on their findings. As Legislatures consider new policies he stated they need consider that we want the most secure system and a system that allows the most people to be able to vote.
Representative Romero commented on the importance of not disenfranchising voters and the need to continue to encourage people to vote.
Mr. Cowley commented that he and his staff are fully committed to implementing the findings of the audit and will continue to improve.
Speaker Schultz noted his appreciation for the work done by Mr. Cowley and his staff and commented on the fact that Legislatures want to do what they can to increase voter turnout.
President Adams commented on the difficulty of the review process when the signature verification process is so subjective.
President Adams moved to refer A Performance Audit of Utah's Election System: Strengthening Election Integrity (Report # 2024-20) to both the House Government Operations Committee and the Senate Government Operations and Political Subdivisions Committee as joint lead committees and to the House Political Subdivisions Committee as the review committee.
Audit Report Presentations
Ms. Leah Blevins, Audit Manager, introduced A Performance Audit of Student Performance on Statewide Tests: The Importance of Focusing on Underperforming Student Groups (Report # 2024-23).
A Performance Audit of Student Performance on Statewide Tests (Report #2024-23)
Ms. Blevins presented the findings of the audit.
Ms. Blevins responded to questions from Representative Romero regarding the number of not proficient English Language Learner (ELL) students after COVID.
Ms. Blevins responded to Representative Romero's comments on ensuring that all students, no matter their background are given the tools they need to be proficient.
Ms. Blevins responded to a question from Senator Escamilla regarding the percentage of students throughout the state of Utah in each of the categories mentioned in the audit.
Senator Escamilla commented on the percentages of students in these groups. They are a large group of student and without this audit this would be an isolated conversation.
Mr. Tyson Cabalugan, Senior Methodologist, responded to a question from Senator Escamilla on the definition of ELL students and whether they are separated by grade level when proficient.
Mr. Darin Nielsen, Assistant Superintendent, Utah State Board of Education responded to the findings of the audit.
President Adams moved to refer A Performance Audit of Student Performance on Statewide Tests: The Importance of Focusing on Underperforming Student Groups (Report # 2024-23) the Education Interim Committee as the lead committee.
Other Business
President Adams moved to prioritize the following audit and give flexibility to the Auditor General to begin the audit as staff and expertise and resources become available: - A Performance Audit of the Division of Child and Family Services.
President Adams thanked the committee members for staying late to attend this meeting.
President Adams moved to adjourn at 6:59 PM.
Committee Business
Committee Business
Audit Report Presentations
Audit Report Presentations
Other Business
Other Business
Adjourn
Adjourn
AGENDA
AGENDA
MINUTES
MINUTES
NOTICE
NOTICE
A Performance Audit of Utah's Election System (Report #2024-20)
A Performance Audit of Utah's Election System (Report #2024-20)
A Performance Audit of Student Performance on Statewide Tests (Report #2024-23)
A Performance Audit of Student Performance on Statewide Tests (Report #2024-23)
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